Qu'ran: Compilation of a Contradiction

[Eddier1]

Qur'an: A Compilation of Contradictions?

In the previously mentioned essay of Zulfikar Khan, numerous contradictions are mentioned. While Muslims may be able to explain away some, there are others that are simply inescapable. One example would be the contradiction between surah Ha Mim As-Sajdah 41:9-12 and surah An-Nazi'at 79:27-30. Here are the respective verses, courtesy of the scientifically conscious Ahmed Ali translation:

[Ha Mim As-Sajdah 41:9-12] Say "Do you refuse to believe in Him who created the earth in two spans of time, and set up compeers to Him, the Lord of all the worlds? He placed firm stabilisers rising above its surface, blessed it with plenty and growth, and ingrained the means of growing its food within it, sufficient for all seekers in four spans. Then he turned to the heavens, and it was smoke. So He said to it and the earth: "Come with willing obedience or perforce." They said: "We come willingly." Then he created several skies in two spans [...]

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[An-Nazi'at 79:27-30] Are you more difficult to create or the heavens? He built it, Raised it high, proportioned it, gave darkness to its night, and brightness to its day; And afterward spread out the earth.

Putting aside the absurd idea of clouds that speak (they said: "we come willingly;" talking water vapor?), and other nonsense that can be found in the above, I would like to comment on the obvious contradiction between these two variations of the creation story. In the first version, the heavens are adorned after it was said the earth was in existence, while the latter claims exactly the opposite. It is quite easy to see how these contradictory accounts came to be in a single text. Before the Qur'an was compiled, there must have been different people with their own traditions. When the text was put together, variant traditions were given equal consideration, and included into the compilation.

One more quick example should be more than enough. In the Qur'an, on two occasions it is written that the Jews, the Christians, the mysterious Sabians, and anyone else who believes in God and does good deeds shall have nothing to fear or regret23 . However, surah al-Imran 3:85 contradicts this claim, by stating that anyone who chooses a religion other than Islam will have paradise denied them. Some heterodox Muslims, such as the followers of Rashad Khalifa, have translated islaam in surah al-Imran to mean "submission to God," thus including Jews and Christians, and making the verse fit with the previously mentioned verses.

Unfortunately this still does not work when one considers surah an-Nisa' 4:150-151, which speaks of painful punishments for those who do not accept all the prophets of Islam. These differing views cannot be reconciled, and amount to a contradiction. This contradiction is so embarrassingly obvious that tafsir 24 informs us that al-Imran abrogates the the other verses. The claim of abrogation opens the door to arguments about invalid verses, Allah changing his mind, and the dubious claim that the Qur'an is a copy of an unalterable book in heaven25. It is quite obvious that there were different persons or groups with their own versions of what God said. Some preached a tolerant Islam, where Jews and Christians were seen as fellow believers; others had a differing view, where only Muslims were on the right path.

Conclusion

Through all this, it has been shown that the Qur'an is indeed given to repetition of whole passages of variant versions. Blatant contradictions have been shown. With this now before us, how can we conclude that this text is the word of an Almighty God, or even a single Arab nomad? It is quite clear that the Qur'an is, as Cook and Crone said at the outset, "the product of belated and imperfect editing of materials from a plurality of traditions." There is simply no other possibility. Whenever the Qur'an was compiled, its compiler(s) took numerous variant traditions into consideration, and included many, or even all, of them into the official cannon. The result is the Qur'an we have today.

[Voice]

Hi, Eddier1

is that your words or someone's else..

any way.. i'll start clarifying things up.

First: Quran is from ONE. Any body with literature knowledg will know it is written in one style.. implying one author.. and this style is so unique and high in literature that the very enemy of islam within Arabia who are known of their poetic and literature capablility could not match it. And Quran indeed challenged them to write a similar Surah,, but their attempts were laughing stock.
The other challenge is finding contradictions.. which seemed easier.. however all assumed contradictions failed!!. the source of assumption is IGNORANCE of what god says.. mixing words and meanings..

NEXT.. STEP BY STEP DISCUSSION>>

[Voice]

the assumed contradiction between (41:9-12) and (79:27-30)

(41)9. Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.

[Day in Arabic have many meanings.. the day=24 hours, Day=Daytime (without night). Day=Battle, Day=Event, Day=Era,, to count some..
so one understand that GOD CREATED EARTH in two stages/or two steps,... or whatever..

10.He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;
[Notice God did not say created it sustenance, but he measured.. in Arabic Qaddar.. means he made intention to do, or make it capable of having sustenance. those who ask means those who needs it (life forms) and such.

11.Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.
[then in the verse is translation of Thumma, which is not necessary means chronological order. Notice he did not say he turn to heaven and created it... it was already created.. HE turn to hevean (it is already created) when it was smoke.. that was the state of the created heaven when God turn to it... Smoke does not ecessary means Cloud!! it could refer to the initial state of heaven.. the Cosmic Smoke, Cloud of Dust as modern science tells.. it could also refers to something else.. becasue the verse says WHEN IT WAS SMOKE,.. which implies that it is now not smoke.. but IT WAS.. so interpreting it with clouds is very dubious. Also arabs do not refer to cloud as smoke!
Aslo one possibility that Heaven (Samaa) in Arabic can refer to the universe we see where starts are.. and it can refer to the earth's atmosphere.
The talk of GOD to Heaven and earth and the reply of these object should not be taken literally.. becasue speak of god is not like us.. and the reply of object is what is called in Arabic "Lisan El-Hal".. which is in literature, putting words in mouth of objects or animals to convey assumed feeling.. Like a poet who writes a conversation between him and his pen.. or his horse.. and so.. it is well known usage in Arabic. Also another posibility is that God the almight could have made them talk literaly (in another verse, the hands and legs of human talk in the latter day, and say that GOD made us talk)

12.Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.

[He then made the already created heaven, into seven.. we don't know what is the explanation of the seven heavens.. is it seven universes?? we don't know for sure.]

====
(79:

27.Are ye the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built?
28.He raised the height thereof and ordered it;
29.And He made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morn thereof.
30.And after that He spread the earth,
31.And produced therefrom the water thereof and the pasture thereof,

He created Hevean then SPREAD EARTH.. it did not say then he created earth.. we know earth was mountenous at first.. from science and from the previous verses in (41:9-12). God after creating HEaven he spread the earth.. we don't know if it is already created or not.. but the most probable and direct meaning that it was created after Heaven..


NOW THE COMMENT OF ARTICLE-WRITER

Putting aside the absurd idea of clouds that speak (they said: "we come willingly;" talking water vapor?), and other nonsense that can be found in the above, I would like to comment on the obvious contradiction between these two variations of the creation story. In the first version, the heavens are adorned after it was said the earth was in existence, while the latter claims exactly the opposite. It is quite easy to see how these contradictory accounts came to be in a single text. Before the Qur'an was compiled, there must have been different people with their own traditions. When the text was put together, variant traditions were given equal consideration, and included into the compilation

if you have been following the verses and my comments on them and the meaning of the actual arabic words, you will see it no absurd idea to say that anything talks.. it is literature.. moreover GOD is almighty.. if he made such collection of molecules able to evolve, talk and think.. why not he can make anything else talk?
** What other non-sense?? so far the verses are very compatibel with modern science.. though i can't say that they meant to teach us science..but to let us think.
if you read the two versions you will see no contradiction.. and the story is:
God creeated Heaven.. then afterward Earth and made the posibility of sustanance in it, then he turn to the already created heaven to make the final reforms.. and then turned to the earth to make the final touches by spreading earth (smoothening it).
We understand that HEaven is created first.. then Earth and the creation of earth started while heaven is still in process.. (evolving).. which is very scientific.. we know Universe existed before earth.. and there was time when bothe earth and universe were evolving dramatically.. also the earth atmosphere was evolving just after earth was in existance.

So there is no need for assumption of Quran being written by two different groups.. especially that we know historically that Quran was collected at one book and was written during the life time of the prophet by IMAM ALI, and others also had their copy.. so WHO ARE the dfferent groups?? it is just unscientifc assumption, becasue it does not fit the criteria of historical theory..

[Voice]

The second assumed contradiction is very easy, and should not be claimed by any one who read Quran..

first, to let you know what Quran Means by ISLAM, MUSLIM..
Literaly, it means submission to Allah. So all who follow the path of allah are muslims.
The jews, christians, who follow that path of GOD ara muslims.. but who are they.. in Islam the jews, christians we know are not following the path of GOD, beascue they refused the true Bible and Turah and wrote their own.. In real Turah and Bible there is prophecy of Mohammed and order to follow him.. so when Mohammed came, the christianity and judaism became obsolete.. and the jews and christians either follow mohammed according to Turah and Bible or they will be disobeying GOD...
(that islamic belief is essential to understand these verses)

In Islam we believe that GOD created the sould of Mohammed and the prophets before anything else.. and that the prophets all believe in Mohammed..

[Abraham was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian; but he was an upright man who had surrendered (to Allah), and he was not of the idolaters. ](3:67)
the arabic word used for surrenderd to Allah, was (Musliman)..(the _an is like english a in a muslim, or spanish uno)

(5:44)Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests (judged) by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers.

the arabic word used is ASLAMOU.. the past plural verb.. which means also became muslim.

(2:132) The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).

the word was MUSLIMOON.. arabic pl. of MUSLIM

(2:133)Or were ye present when death came to Jacob, when he said unto his sons: What will ye worship after me? They said: We shall worship thy god, the god of thy fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, One Allah, and unto Him we have surrendered.

also: MUSLIMOON

(2:136) Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

also: MUSLIMOON

3:52 [But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we have surrendered (unto Him). ]

too, MUSLIMOON is the word.

5:111 [And when I inspired the disciples, (saying): Believe in Me and in My messenger, they said: We believe. Bear witness that we have surrendered (unto Thee) "we are muslims". ]

so the MUSLIM word, and its derivative used for Abraham, Jacob, JESUS, his true followers.... etc..

NEXT.. THE VESRES IN QUESTION

[Eddier1]

Originally posted by Voice
Hi, Eddier1

is that your words or someone's else..

any way.. i'll start clarifying things up.

First: Quran is from ONE. Any body with literature knowledg will know it is written in one style.. implying one author.. and this style is so unique and high in literature that the very enemy of islam within Arabia who are known of their poetic and literature capablility could not match it. And Quran indeed challenged them to write a similar Surah,, but their attempts were laughing stock.
The other challenge is finding contradictions.. which seemed easier.. however all assumed contradictions failed!!. the source of assumption is IGNORANCE of what god says.. mixing words and meanings..

NEXT.. STEP BY STEP DISCUSSION>>

Voice, as I told you in the past, I am not deeply into religionism, and that there are others more qualified on such subjects as Islam than I am. It appears that I was hurried into writing my post, which is only an excerpt from an exegesis by Denis Giron on "The Qur'an: A Work of Multiple Hands?".

As I said to conciencia, I wanted to get you guys thinking in a critically realistic way and out of the rut of being stuck in the desuetude of archaic usages when discussing the Bible and/or the Koran (Qur'an}.

Trying to not step on any toes here in the Bible belt or the Qur'an belt, I omitted such starters for openers as Giron used that might have been offensive to you a Muslim from Saudi Arabia (isn't that your location?}

TO WIT: here is some Bibliography and Notes used by Denis Giron [optimistically, not a menace to your religion]

Notes

1. Patricia Crone and Michael Cook, Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World , (Cambridge, 1977) p. 18

2. For example, see Who Wrote the Bible? by Richard E. Friedman

3. Though it should be noted that this is first person plural, as in "We said to Moses," et cetera.

4. Walker, Foundations of Islam, (Peter Owen, 1998) p. 156

5. Warraq, Why I Am Not a Muslim, (Prometheus, 1995) p. 106

6. Surah Bani Israa'il 17:1

7. This is, according to Islamic folklore, the event where Muhammad flew on his flying horse to Jerusalem, and then ascended into heaven.

8. That is, the angel Gabriel, of Judeo-Christian folklore, who, according to Islamic tradition, is the one who brought Allah's message to Muhammad.

9. Virk is a Qadiani Muslim of internet fame. This argument is not from a published work; rather it is taken from the quasi-intellectual dialog that takes place in the usenet newsgroup soc.religion.islam.

10. Zulfikar Khan's essay, at the time of this writing, could be found on-line at http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/koran.html

11. The assumption that the source of the Qur'an is either Allah, or Muhammad, without considering other possibilities.

12. Consider the aforementioned Why I Am Not a Muslim, as well as The Origins of the Koran (Prometheus, 1998), both by Warraq.

13. Consider al-Rawandi's Islamic Mysticism: A Secular Perspective (Prometheus, 2000), as well as the second chapter of Ibn Warraq's Quest for the Historical Muhammad (Prometheus, 2000), which was also written by al-Rawandi.

14. For more on the shaky Islamic calendar, see Conrad, Lawrence I, Abraha and Muhammad, Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies 50 (1987) pp. 225-240; this same article can also be found reprinted in Warraq, Quest for the Historical Muhammad, pp. 368-391.

15. Surah Luqman 31:6

16. Surah al-Jathiyya 45:6

17. Hadith (plural: ahadith) can be translated as "tradition," "story," et cetera.

18. Reinach, Salomon, Orpheus: A History of Religion, (New York, 1932), p. 176, as cited in both Warraq, Quest for the Historical Muhammad, p. 9, and Katz, Bernard, The Ways of an Atheist, (Prometheus, 1999), p. 145

19. The act of worshipping something other than Allah.

20. See surat al-Baqarah 2:34; al-A`raf 7:11-15; Bani Israa'il 17:61; et cetera.

21. See The Mahabharata, abridged translation by Krishna Dharma, p. 62. Kunti, a virgin, is visited by a celestial being (in this case, the sun god Surya, not the angel Gabriel), and he informs Kunti that she is going to bear a child. She exclaims that is impossible since no man has touched her, to which the celestial being replies that such things are easy for God.

22. Compare surah al-Imran 3:45-50 with surah Maryam 19:16-21.

23. See surat al-Baqarah 2:62, al-Ma'ida 5:69, and also consider al-'Asra 103:2-3.

24. Orthodox commentary on the Qur'an, somewhat of the Islamic equivalent of Rabbinic commentary.

25. Surah al-Buruj 85:21-22.

[Eddier1]

Voice said:
[/quote]
"if you have been following the verses and my comments on them and the meaning of the actual arabic words, you will see it no absurd idea to say that anything talks.. it is literature.. moreover GOD is almighty.. if he made such collection of molecules able to evolve, talk and think.. why not he can make anything else talk?"
-----------------------------------------

Well with regard to the above, I will have to disagree with you, NOT ON RELIGIONIST GROUNDS, though.

You see, Voice, I have university degrees in Philosophy, History, and Literature, so I am credentialed to assert that apart from being an absurd notion, it is from the standpoint of Literature, an Anthropomorphic Fallacy to have clouds, animals, trees, and such flora and fauna speak in human language (and that goes for the Burning Bush that spoke to Mosas in a human voice, all-be-it in the Hebrew of the Old Testament, too!!).

[Eddier1]

[quote]Originally posted by Voice
[b]"The second assumed contradiction is very easy, and should not be claimed by any one who read Quran.."

Voice, here let me say a bit that might give the impression that I am more than just getting my feet wet in religionism. But not really, I assure you.

Tolerance, a fine and beautiful word of moral and civilized character, is supported by me 100%. Let a thousand flowers bloom is the Oriental Adage, the light that comes out of the East as does the Sunshine!

Moreover, careful now of the manure of "religionism", I point out to you that ever since the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, we now know that Christianity, or more precisely Judeo-Christianity, IS an infrastructure of Judaism. And you Muslims have many times said that both the Jews and the Christians are PEOPLE OF THE BOOK, i.e., your book of the Koran (Qur'an). So what is your problem with being tolerant of such believers? They are NOT infidels, and you know that!

To be honest with you, I find your explanations not satisfactory with regard to rejecting such People of the Book as not worthy of what all you guys believe in, and that is some kind of Heaven and Hell.

Of course, as for me I choose TOLERANCE, because I obey my CONSCIENCE, which I experience like a fountain whose springs are clear and refreshing, providing me with all the Harmony and Peace that I require.