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The Bible is accurate but not perfect. Next topic: "Revelation"; express yourself.

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Old 14th February 2000, 18:23
Joseph Joseph is offline
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Having concluded dialogue, about the 100% Factual interpretation, of The Bible, I wish to promote discussion on "Revelation" (to some it is most mis-understood).

What is your Expression and Sentiment about:
"Revelation" ?

I wish to read through this chapter, before
comment. In the interim, please feel free to
provide us with your point of view.


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Old 15th February 2000, 10:13
Joseph Joseph is offline
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Revelation, derived from the Greek word
'Apocalupsis', was most likely written by John The Apostle, while being exiled on an island. Three main reasons are given for this
Book:
1) Address the deviation of standard
by Churches in Asia.

2) Strengthen The Faith of Churches,
at a time when Domitian, Roman
Emperor at the time, made his
'subjects' address him as Lord
and God.

3) Providing all generations with
the future outcome of History
including fierce conflict with
Satan's Forces.


Based on its contents, Revelation truly
addresses its purpose; which explains why it
was included when The Bible was written.

I will provide this opinion, to stimulate discussion and greater understanding, on a
difficult text:

When reading any Historical account, one must
be aware of varying conditions which can
affect interpretation. For example; The Bible
states of the high degree of persecution on Beleivers of The Church, after the life of
Jesus. This can limit the author's potential
with more emotion than rational and logical
discourse. Another varying condition is the level of education, on most people, at this time. This means words which moved people to respond with emotion rather than logic was
implemented. There are countless examples of
elements which can affect interpretation.
The 'Futurist interpretation', of The Bible,
views "Revelation" , as prophecy concerning
events in History that will occur at the end of this age. God's perspective in regards to our struggles with 'Satan', the third reason
for which "Revelation" was written, is most relevant to our generation.

The term 'Satan', is a simplified word which
was used to warn people of negative consequence. The same for the terms sea beast, earth beast, and anti-christ. If the term: "Extreme Negative Expression" were to be applied during this early time, how can most people comphrehend its logic? Or the perplexity in regards to moral questionable issues? The Roman Empire, extended throughout Europe, Middle East and North Africa. Living under a lifetime of Tyranny,
makes most people respond emotionally. It is not 'un-christian', to respectably define
traditional phrases, for which today's world
of high technology can seem less credible.
How many people truly believe that "Angels"
have wings? Or that Heaven is sorrounded by clouds, and Hell by Fire? As I stated previously, Heaven today can be accepted as a far more advanced time zone, with Hell having to do with re-incarnation to a certain degree. Follow up comment later. Joseph

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Old 15th February 2000, 10:54
El_Criollo El_Criollo is offline
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Joseph:

You are forgetting two things in "your approach" to reading and understanding the book of Revelation:

1- "First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." 2 Peter 1:20,21

2- "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." Revelation 22:18,19

Therefore, Jose, if you go ahead and interpret this book from you own subjective point of view, and if you omit or add anything from the book (and this implies the entire Bible, since it is its last book) in your attempt to make the book fit into your own philosophical frame of reference you are doing so at your own risk.

Remember:
"It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Hebrews 10:31 (Read the context, Hebrews 10:26-31.)


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Old 15th February 2000, 18:44
Joseph Joseph is offline
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El Criollo:

Very good point; which is why I stated that varying conditions need to be undertood
for clear interpretation. There have been
3 general forms of interpreting "Revelation".
I stated 'The Futurist Interpretation', as the one presented in the Bible I am using.
Many people throughout History interpret
Individual Quotes to entire 'Books Of The Bible'. Whether they have a degree in Theology or not. The New Int'l Version is a prime example. 'Version' is equivalent to
Interpretation. Does this mean all of these
people have 'sinned'? This is vague, and contradictory, El Criollo, and could be termed:

"Double Standard" ; a parallel act which is limited on one side, without explanation or logic.

I am also familiar with the Warning to the 7 Churches. The compromise of Christian belief,
'sexual immorality' and false phrophets. This is why this Book is so difficult to interpret. However with keen logical approach it could be clearly understood. This is the reason I am interested in promoting discussion on this Book in The Bible. The ultimate decision is each within each one of us. All which I have stated previously: "The Greatest Commandment", adds prioritized definition to
the purpose and benefits of loving God and peaceful co-existance. This would mean that if questionable(based on varying conditions) moral issues socially alienate people(at the very least) and even from God,
then it would be catastrophic, contradictory,
and self-defeating to the main purpose of
Religion. This is why we have differences between Church and State Laws, which govern
our moral and legal conduct. There are Individual and Religious Freedom rights. Peaceful co-existance with respect to our Individual Faith is most important. Do you believe Jesus knew of the turbulent times after his life on Earth? Is this why he quoted: "The Greatest Commandment". This is the foundation of our belief. Through rational and logical 'constructive' discussion, we can have better reasoning to
make our own individual decision.

"Zephanious" a phrophet during the old testament, also had a revelation. There is belief that the revelation in the New Testament was derived from. This is to say that John The Apostle or those who wrote The New Testament, knew of The Book Of Zephanious. This comment is presented in
the New Int'l version. When The Apostle John
wrote The Book Of Revelation, he was in prison, isolated on an island, under Tyranny
for all of his life and extreme persecution.
Spiritual Intensity is real, however human
flaw(imperfectness, only God is perfect), along with other varying conditions can cause mis-interpretation for any man as author or as reader. This is why one must clearly understand that God has never written a single word of The Bible. It is a Historical account of Religious Freedom, which can be respectfully(rational & logic)
defined. Each and everyone of us can be inspired by God or 'Satan'. Only rational and logical reasoning can provide us with the best approach. To discuss is different
from implementation. We live in a World where most of us are educated, and can use
common sense towards complex situations. Constructive dialogue has always proven most
beneficial than emotional transgression.

By refining the 'varying conditions' towards
the main purpose(priority), of any verse, we can then isolate and discuss later in detail.


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Old 16th February 2000, 18:46
Joseph Joseph is offline
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My heart, soul, and mind as a Christian,
love God and believe in peaceful co-existance with those of different Faith.
With this solid foundation the natural fear of God's wrath, is defeated with the power of love and understanding. God knows what is inside our deepest thoughts; which is why we are all individually responsible for our actions. To promote constructive discussion, in a rational and logical era, is understandable. God's logic and perception is perfect. This is why the element of Time, historically provides the ultimate truth of any action or in-action...
I will provide additional information for
those who question further respectable definition , of The Bible.

These are the Four Major School Of Interpretation on The Book Of Revelation:

1) The Preterist Interpretation
2) The Historicist Interpretation
3) The Idealist Interpretation
4) The Futurist Interpretation

These are 'Schools' Of Interpretation which
for centuries have tried to best interpret
"Revelations".

The question however of compromising Christian Faith, promoting sexual immorality,
and other historical accusations, must be answered . Throughout History including
the Last Books of the Old Testament , many warnings are always written to minimize dissension and strengthen belief .
This is understandable, even in todays
World of vast Business, Organizations,
and other Governing Bodies. In reference to varying conditions, which individually
transcend any action or in-action, one must
assert that in Today's World most Institutions have flourished because of rational and logical constructive discussions. The reason Religion has stalled is because it is very sensitive to talk
about, question or analyze inconsistancies.
The 'Bandaid' approach for centuries , did not fully explaining universal applications
(for peaceful co-existance), and publicly respect denominational and other Faith differences. If done earlier in History, this would have saved and actually improved millions of lives. This has been most catastrophic. Only recent peaceful attempts in
the last decades have actually brought
the possibility of actual peaceful co-existance "to the horizon". Clear interpretation by many people can reduce
the fear of our God, who loves his Creation...

Judgement from love to actual transgression is un-questionable. However
there are many complexities of this, to just simplify. I beleive it is an automated process created by God, related to re-incarnation to a limited extent. What is most important at this time (New Millenium)
is to first reach peaceful co-existance and greater socialization between those of different faith can lead to advancements in other areas within our environment. This is
a credible philosophical perception. One Hundred years ago , it was unlikely to fathom or even dream, actual accomplishments. The Step by Step
Approach in most cases promoted our
Historical feats.

So why is all this rational logic not implemented into Religion? Specially towards greater fullfillment of "The first Commandment" (Mathew 22-34), quoted
from Jesus Christ.

Historical and Scientific Data has always been 'The Spear" of man into the future.
Religion has played the important role as 'shield' of fear or for greater defense, and confidence . So if God can inspire
countless of people to invent, solve complex problems, which accelerate our rate of technological advancement; why then would not that inspiration be available to any God loving person who wishes to do the same for Religion?

This is a Step By Step rational and logical approach intended to promote constructive discussion and new ideas
for many to benefit from. Best Regards.


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[This message has been edited by Joseph (edited 16 February 2000).]
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Old 17th February 2000, 19:36
Joseph Joseph is offline
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In Summary:

Religion, throughout History has been a very positive influence. My only concern is the continuous negative consequence, minor questionable moral issues have caused.
Alienation; from social to transgression, which at times causes dissent from God.

By promoting dialogue on this matter, ideas
from many could make individual decisions
easier, when relevant issues affect our lives. We will be able to respect each Individual moral decision, as one which only God, may pass judgement, instead of man.

Please note: These are 'moral' , not legal issues, being addressed.

If Religious and State leaders lessen debate on 'legalizing questionable moral concerns', then more Time could be spent on Health and Economic issues, which have greater effect on us all. Ultimately this would increase, in mass proportion, peaceful co-existance, greater acknowledgement and Worship of God, regardless of Individual Faith. Also more social and constructive activity between people of different Denomination or Faith,including less transgression.

Would you agree that this course of action will please God, the most? And strengthen Our Goverment and Church?

Does this facilitate our rate of Technological Advancement, due to greater
Trust and positive inter-action, in the long-term?

Is it worth for us, to constructively express sentiment on such sensitive issues,
for these benefits?


The answers to these questions are the main reason for starting this dialogue. Not to
create havoc, further alienation, on these sensitive questionable moral concern.

In Today's World, it takes many people, with constructive ideas, to promote positive change.

Thank you for your consideration, and time.






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Old 19th February 2000, 18:37
Joseph Joseph is offline
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Addendum:

How would you feel about the following
clarifications, which could be improved
with additional reference and discussion?


1) Heaven; Highest Advanced Time Zone, with
Automated Multi-Dimensional & Transcendent
Characteristics.

2) Pergatory(Hell); Both relevant to the
Lowest levels of God's Creation.Automated.


From this we can then attest:

"Heaven" ; vast beyond imagination, comprehensive with restriction. Therefore Man would be incapable to 'judge' entry where there is Supreme complexity. Specially
concerning questionable moral issues, which
underline the reason for promoting further
dialogue.

With greater emphasis on Health and Economical issues, such as: World Population,
Food supply, Education, and more opportunity for Individual/Commercial prosperity, would then facilitate the Political and Psychological Transition towards
Eradication of Disease unto rejunivation of
cells. Within our great society elements
can be 'streamlined' to realize potential.

When there is greater harmony due to less emphasis on divisive questionable moral issues, as stated previous, more Time is available to solve problems which everyone
can benefit.

This completes this commentary. Feel free to
address any issues raised for constructive discussion.


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