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Part II Jesus is the perfect "Begotten Son"

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Old 17th April 2001, 13:19
conciencia conciencia is offline
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ALCON,

Knowledge is power. Please use your Bible and come along. Ask questiones come on, you have the right, please no defamation or abussive rhetoric statements only proof.

God Superior at All Times




AT THE very outset of Jesus' ministry, when he came up out of the baptismal water, God's voice from heaven said: "This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved." (Matthew 3:16, 17) Was God saying that he was his own son, that he approved himself, that he sent himself? No, God the Creator was saying that he, as the superior, was approving a lesser one, his Son Jesus, for the work ahead.


When Jesus cried out: "My God, my God, why have you deserted me?" he surely did not believe that he himself was God

Jesus indicated his Father's superiority when he said: "Jehovah's spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor." (Luke 4:18) Anointing is the giving of authority or a commission by a superior to someone who does not already have authority. Here God is plainly the superior, for he anointed Jesus, giving him authority that he did not previously have.

Jesus made his Father's superiority clear when the mother of two disciples asked that her sons sit one at the right and one at the left of Jesus when he came into his Kingdom. Jesus answered: "As for seats at my right hand and my left, these are not mine to grant; they belong to those to whom they have been allotted by my Father," that is, God. (Matthew 20:23, JB) Had Jesus been Almighty God, those positions would have been his to give. But Jesus could not give them, for they were God's to give, and Jesus was not God.

Jesus' own prayers are a powerful example of his inferior position. When Jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place." (Luke 22:42) To whom was he praying? To a part of himself? No, he was praying to someone entirely separate, his Father, God, whose will was superior and could be different from his own, the only One able to "remove this cup."

Then, as he neared death, Jesus cried out: "My God, my God, why have you deserted me?" (Mark 15:34, JB) To whom was Jesus crying out? To himself or to part of himself? Surely, that cry, "My God," was not from someone who considered himself to be God. And if Jesus were God, then by whom was he deserted? Himself? That would not make sense. Jesus also said: "Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit." (Luke 23:46) If Jesus were God, for what reason should he entrust his spirit to the Father?

After Jesus died, he was in the tomb for parts of three days. If he were God, then Habakkuk 1:12 is wrong when it says: "O my God, my Holy One, you do not die." But the Bible says that Jesus did die and was unconscious in the tomb. And who resurrected Jesus from the dead? If he was truly dead, he could not have resurrected himself. On the other hand, if he was not really dead, his pretended death would not have paid the ransom price for Adam's sin. But he did pay that price in full by his genuine death. So it was "God [who] resurrected [Jesus] by loosing the pangs of death." (Acts 2:24) The superior, God Almighty, raised the lesser, his servant Jesus, from the dead.

Does Jesus' ability to perform miracles, such as resurrecting people, indicate that he was God? Well, the apostles and the prophets Elijah and Elisha had that power too, but that did not make them more than men. God gave the power to perform miracles to the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles to show that He was backing them. But it did not make any of them part of a plural Godhead.

Jesus Had Limited Knowledge




WHEN Jesus gave his prophecy about the end of this system of things, he stated: "But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." (Mark 13:32, RS, Catholic edition) Had Jesus been the equal Son part of a Godhead, he would have known what the Father knows. But Jesus did not know, for he was not equal to God.

'New Testament research has been leading an increasing number of scholars to the conclusion that Jesus certainly never believed himself to be God.' —Bulletin of the John Rylands Library


Similarly, we read at Hebrews 5:8 that Jesus "learned obedience from the things he suffered." Can we imagine that God had to learn anything? No, but Jesus did, for he did not know everything that God knew. And he had to learn something that God never needs to learn—obedience. God never has to obey anyone.

The difference between what God knows and what Christ knows also existed when Jesus was resurrected to heaven to be with God. Note the first words of the last book of the Bible: "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him." (Revelation 1:1, RS, Catholic edition) If Jesus himself were part of a Godhead, would he have to be given a revelation by another part of the Godhead—God? Surely he would have known all about it, for God knew. But Jesus did not know, for he was not God.

Jesus Continues Subordinate




IN HIS prehuman existence, and also when he was on earth, Jesus was subordinate to God. After his resurrection, he continues to be in a subordinate, secondary position.

Speaking of the resurrection of Jesus, Peter and those with him told the Jewish Sanhedrin: "God exalted this one [Jesus] . . . to his right hand." (Acts 5:31) Paul said: "God exalted him to a superior position." (Philippians 2:9) If Jesus had been God, how could Jesus have been exalted, that is, raised to a higher position than he had previously enjoyed? He would already have been an exalted part of the Trinity. If, before his exaltation, Jesus had been equal to God, exalting him any further would have made him superior to God.

Paul also said that Christ entered "heaven itself, so that he could appear in the actual presence of God on our behalf." (Hebrews 9:24, JB) If you appear in someone else's presence, how can you be that person? You cannot. You must be different and separate.

Similarly, just before being stoned to death, the martyr Stephen "gazed into heaven and caught sight of God's glory and of Jesus standing at God's right hand." (Acts 7:55) Clearly, he saw two separate individuals—but no holy spirit, no Trinity Godhead.

In the account at Revelation 4:8 to 5:7, God is shown seated on his heavenly throne, but Jesus is not. He has to approach God to take a scroll from God's right hand. This shows that in heaven Jesus is not God but is separate from him.

In agreement with the foregoing, the Bulletin of the John Rylands Library in Manchester, England, states: "In his post-resurrection heavenly life, Jesus is portrayed as retaining a personal individuality every bit as distinct and separate from the person of God as was his in his life on earth as the terrestrial Jesus. Alongside God and compared with God, he appears, indeed, as yet another heavenly being in God's heavenly court, just as the angels were—though as God's Son, he stands in a different category, and ranks far above them."—Compare Philippians 2:11.

The Bulletin also says: "What, however, is said of his life and functions as the celestial Christ neither means nor implies that in divine status he stands on a par with God himself and is fully God. On the contrary, in the New Testament picture of his heavenly person and ministry we behold a figure both separate from and subordinate to God."

In the everlasting future in heaven, Jesus will continue to be a separate, subordinate servant of God. The Bible expresses it this way: "After that will come the end, when he [Jesus in heaven] will hand over the kingdom to God the Father . . . Then the Son himself will be subjected to the One who has subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all."—1 Corinthians 15:24, 28, NJB.




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Old 20th April 2001, 12:44
El_Jibaro El_Jibaro is offline
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Talking Two simple questions, may be a third one...

Ok Estrada:

1 - Are you married?

2 - If so, is there total equality in your marriage, or is there a leader and a follower?

3 - If there is a leader/follower relationship, who is the intrinsically greatest of both of you?

My personal answer to these three I'll give you later.
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Old 20th April 2001, 13:39
conciencia conciencia is offline
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conciencia
Smile Your comparison is not fit....

Jibarito,

Elementary my dear, elementary.... Marriage is not a Trinity nor can a man and woman be compared with the relationship of Father and Son and his invisible force..

[Edited by conciencia on 21st April 2001 at 15:51]
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Old 20th April 2001, 13:59
El_Jibaro El_Jibaro is offline
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Talking I don't avoid the issues like you.

In my home:

1 - We are married; no need to hide in a motel like others...

2 - I lead, she follows, otherwise nothing gets done.

3 - None of us two are greater than the other, if anything at all I would say that she is the hinge-pin in our family.

Now, this is the situation of two separate beings with ONE FLESH and EQUAL WORTH before God. In the case of ONE BEING with Three Persons of course there may be similarities, but things are not as easy to visualize.

Well, lets ask a similar question:

The Bible states as a fact that human beings are composed of a spirit, soul and body.

1 - Which part is greater than the other?

2 - In which part does the Holy Spirit reside?

3 - If we take one part out, are you still a human being?
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Old 21st April 2001, 10:39
conciencia conciencia is offline
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Please explain your statement....

Jibarito,

Please explain you statement or give me foundation of the "fact" the Bible says we are composed of Body, Spirit and Soul. I understand the Bible says we are a Soul but not " we have a soul".

By the way, I lead certain areas in my home, my wife leads certain areas and I will not cross the line. However we do coordinate and confer to make a final decision when necessary. We both have certain responsibilities. She is a complete different being as well as me. She is responsible for her actions as well as I am for mines. She has her own name and social security number as well as I. Even identical or siames twins are distint persons. They can however action in concert if preplanned or schetched.
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Old 21st April 2001, 17:32
El_Jibaro El_Jibaro is offline
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Talking Political Correctness is the new name that HIPOCRISY and DUPLICITY used to have.

Well Estrada, I see your problem, no wonder you resort to Pornography... I hope your children don't get the short end of the stick later on.

Coming back to more abstract things, lets travel through the Bible:

Quote:
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:38
Quote:
What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? Matthew 16:26
Quote:
Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against,so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too." Luke 2:34,35
Quote:
He answered: "`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, `Love your neighbor as yourself.' " Luke 10:27
Quote:
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23
Quote:
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Hebrews 4:12
Quote:
We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek. Hebrews 6:19,20
Quote:
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. Revelation 9:6
So, go ahead, replace the word soul with Blood and see how well it fits. It doesn't, I tried . Only a spiritual soul fits .

Then again, you are so biased by your religion that you rather DENY the TRUTH.
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Old 21st April 2001, 18:38
conciencia conciencia is offline
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Red face I wonder what was it i said that pist you off?

Jibarito,

Why is it that makes you lose your temper? What is it with the pornagrafy claiming? Why do you not provide proof so that the readers can see your iresponsability of defamming anybody that cross you. Come on give us some proof of your despicable claims.

And why do you have to mention my childrens? what have they done to you?

I can understand your dark intentions since they in parallel with you false and handicap beliefs, but at least be a gentleman.

Even Satan was a Gentleman and departed from Jesus after he intented to tentacion toward the rightous King.
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