The Father is Greater than I

[conciencia]

Who is subordinate to whom?

In John 14:28 Jesus clearly states," I am going away to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am"

In Corintians 11:3 " But I want You to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Chist is God".

This a strong point for argument, since it seems that just like Usama Bin Laden only one man and it seems that he can destroy the whole capitalist world, Ron Rhodes not a Christian but a Trinitarians intents to discredit the same scrpitures by using excuses as Another Rican and Jibaro consistenly endure, For example when a scripture clearly unmask the false doctrine of Trinity, they say the scripture is a dream, poem or imagination of the writer, ironically the Book of John alone apart from the other main ther gospels is considered to be a poetic written book, other scolars claim to be semi-poetic, and this is the only one that Trinitarians claim the JOHN 1:1 as GOD and JESUS the same. Boy! surprise and a learning curve is approaching.

Again, translation is the basis for confusion. Mr Ron Rhodes mistranstate the word "meizon" and "kreitton" to salvage the pagan practice and failed right on his face.

But lets look at 1 Corinthians 15:28--"Now when it says that everything has been put under him (Christ), it is clear that this does not include God himsel, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to Him (GOD) who put everthing under him, so that God may be all in all"

The point!!! Christ is under the authority of GOD and GOD is under the Authority of no one and then the Holy Spirit is not even mention.

Lets look at Mark 13:32 and Matthew 24:36, I love these... they are so clear..jejjeejeje...Jesus says" Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father"

So here is a clear distinction between the Son and the Father. The shocking one here is the fact that this knowledge is not even shared by the SON itself and Jesus is speaking here folks. So if you apply the water theory here it will not even function or Jibaro's claim about the math or the God head figure, you see the Father knows and the Son does not, chew on this one...

Now let look at Matthew 24:36-- Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but ONLY the father" This one is explicit, do you not think so? Again the Trinity uncovered.

This good for now...more to come.

[nachos1965]

Concencia,
I read your post and thought of the following verses:

Philippians 2:5-8
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Hebrews 1:1-5
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
For to which of the angels did He ever say, "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"?
And again, "I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"?


Hebrews 1:6-9
And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."And of the angels He says, "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE." But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
"YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."

Compare
Isaiah 42:8"I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images."
&

Exodus 34:14
"for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God"

How can Hebrews 1:6-9 be true unless God the Father is the same as God the Son? Otherwise, God the Father will be asking the angels (and us) to worship someone else (Jesus Christ) other than Him. He cannot do that if He is a jealous God who will not give his glory to another.

Hebrews 1:10
And, "YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

Compare

Genesis 1:1 - "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

If God the Father says to the angels that Jesus Christ created the heavens and the earth, then it only means that God the Father and God the Son are one and the same.




Hebrews 1:11-13
THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END." But to which of the angels has He ever said, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES
A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET"?

Nachos.

[nene787]

Pues, dejame decir primero, que no vine aqui a este foro para predicar la biblia ni platicar la politica, simplemente, para decirte yo se quien eres tu. Me equivoque, cuando vos y yo, nos conocimos la primera vez por el otro foro, y me dijiste que me conoces. Conozco a algunos de vuestros socios. Mejor solo uno en verdad, pero estoy segurisimo que es un amigo vuestro. Pues, os llamais en completo "Cociencia Nacional" ?Verdad? y quereis auxiliar la Isla Nena de las garras de los EEUU. ?Verdad? Vos tienes que decirme. Yo se de los movimientos, y eso es la unica cosa que voy a decirte. Si eres quien creo, estamos por la misma causa para nuestra Isla. Y mis socios y yo, os aguardamos por mas alla del camino. La revolucion viene ahorita. Esos son las habichuelas, ?Me entiendes socio? El nuevo "grito" de esta epoca se acerca.

Manana Lares, Hoy Vieques, Manana Puerto Rico o la muerte,
El Nene (Piensalo muy bien, y te daras cuenta quien soy)




[Edited by nene787 on 13th November 2001 at 03:32]

[conciencia]

Nacho,

Thanks for you organized exposition, I love it. Maybe others would follow.

reference you first presentation:
Phillippians 2:5-8 & Hebrews 1-13

You said:

Concencia,
I read your post and thought of the following verses:

Philippians 2:5-8
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Lets take this one first. The whole construction is fine with the exception of "although He existed in the form of God" If you see the direct word per word translation it read as such" who in form of God existing not snatching he considered the to be equal (things) to God," nevertheless the scripture does show how Jesus conducted or behaved in a humble attitude versus a Royal or godlike stance having the ability to do so. This is a setup for his annoiting and favortism by his Father God.

Hebrews 1:1-5
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
For to which of the angels did He ever say, "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"?
And again, "I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"?

Nacho this one is great since it also makes such distinction of Father and Son," And again, "I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"? " It also denotes the ranking system whereas Jesus is higher than the Abgels but lower than his Father"For to which of the angels did He ever say, "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"?" Here we can see that Jesus is created. Look at this one "He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they." The royalness or the prophesy of Jesus kingdom where he will be seated on his Right, by inheritance. If you follow the Millenial Reign which has been pointed out to me JW do believe in such scrptures by Jibaro and AR, It is to this God that Christ will hand over his Kingdom at the end of his Millennial Regn, so " That God may be all things to everyone"---Ac 3:13, 26; 1 Co 15:28.



Hebrews 1:6-9
And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."And of the angels He says, "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE." But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
"YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."
This is a classic, mistranslation and can be clearly demostrated if you go to Psalm 45:6-8. Whereas King David has been said the same, so is King David also part of the Trinity? Nacho if you compare both scriptures, the construction, then the context among other, you will see that only a non-bias translator should be allowed to translate Religious scriptures, since if not, the context and the following of grammar laws will favor their own especially, if a no clear cut translation can be determined and a agreement of scriptures as well as "virgin" context must be applied or considered. Take note: The old testament is perhaps a very good form to revised Greek to English translation and on this one it should be effected.

This is all for tonite...Tomorrow is another day.

[nachos1965]

Concencia,
In reading your comment about God the Father glorifying God the Son during the millenium reign, I thought of Zechariah 14:1-19 where it say:

Zechariah 14:1
Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.

Zechariah 14:2
For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.

Zechariah 14:3
Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.

Zechariah 14:4
In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

Zechariah 14:5
You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!

Zechariah 14:6
In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle.

Zechariah 14:7
For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.

Zechariah 14:8
And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter.

Zechariah 14:9
And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one.

Zechariah 14:9 suggest that only Jehovah God will be the only one reigning over all the earth. How can that be if you just stated that Christ will reign over the earth by God the Father's side?

Nachos.

[conciencia]

You said;

Compare
Isaiah 42:8"I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images."
&

Exodus 34:14
"for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God"

Nachos, I knew this one was coming, however, notice that Isaiah and Exodus, both of these book are from the Old Testament as you can see it is extremelly clear how or what Jehovah means about his Singleness and Omnipotency. I cannot aurgue here He is the Almighty, Now compare it to the New Testament whereas the Trinitarian have corrupted the translation in such a manner that we can only come to crazy conclusions such as "somebody is not saying the truth" or we start to question the Bible itself, but standfast, these books we hold are only translation not the real or original Bibles.The Bias translators are organized and have established the requirements of translations technics and procedures to certify, assess any given translation, they have built a government within a government.

Look at A.R. and his side kick, they talk about the NIV being a respected version and highly regarded by the community, I ask what community? The Trinitary community? of course, because anybody else that will not agree with their political translation procedures will be attacked and beat up. But lets get back on track.

You said:

How can Hebrews 1:6-9 be true unless God the Father is the same as God the Son? Otherwise, God the Father will be asking the angels (and us) to worship someone else (Jesus Christ) other than Him. He cannot do that if He is a jealous God who will not give his glory to another.

Nacho, that is not the argument here, I do understand why you are reaching to such concept, the problem here is the translated version and maintaining a neutral attitude or mind.

But let me do the Jibaro thing: But with the KJV, I like since it is poetic and presents various context different form the NIV, done with a purpose!!!
"6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

This your version:
Hebrews 1:6-9
And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."And of the angels He says, "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE." But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
"YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."

Now lets look at it in Greek:
"6 ”ôáí äc ðÜëéí åkóáãÜãw ô’í ðñùôüôïêïí åkò ôxí ïkêïõìÝíçí, ëÝãåé,
Êár ðñïóêõíçóÜôùóáí ášô² ðÜíôåò Tããåëïé èåï™.
7 êár ðñ’ò ìcí ôï˜ò PããÝëïõò ëÝãåé,
FÏ ðïé§í ôï˜ò PããÝëïõò ášôï™ ðíåýìáôá
êár ôï˜ò ëåéôïõñãï˜ò ášôï™ ðõñ’ò öëüãá,
8 ðñ’ò äc ô’í õjüí,
FÏ èñüíïò óïõ ¿ èåüò åkò ô’í ák§íá ôï™ ák§íïò,
êár ½ ¼Üâäïò ôyò åšèýôçôïò ¼Üâäïò ôyò âáóéëåßáò óïõ.
9zãÜðçóáò äéêáéïóýíçí êár dìßóçóáò Píïìßáí·
äéN ôï™ôï h÷ñéóÝí óå ¿ èåüò ¿ èåüò óïõ
hëáéïí PãáëëéÜóåùò ðáñN ôï˜ò ìåôü÷ïõò óïõ."

Note: Going to have to download the greek font software.

Nevertheless, pay attention to the word "Worship" this word is really "let do obeisance toward" so if yo also observe" angel sprits" and "Angel winds" Then again in the same scripture you will observe the word "begotten Son" and "Firstborn" denoting again the Creation of Jesus.

But something to chew on... if God is the Power that holds the world and he is the Alpha and Omega, then if you believe in the pagan dogma Trinity, How did the World, well the Universe, survived, maintain its course when Jesus Christ died, buried for 72 hours?



I will continue later, hold that thought.

[Edited by conciencia on 14th November 2001 at 13:43]

[AnotherRican]

Originally posted by conciencia
You said;

Notice Conciencia Estrada trying to wax like a Greek scholar when he "ain't" one at all.

Here is a question to the JW Estrada... If you are married then are you superior to your wife?

AnotherRican





Compare
Isaiah 42:8"I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images."
&

Exodus 34:14
"for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God"

Nachos, I knew this one was coming, however, notice that Isaiah and Exodus, both of these book are from the Old Testament as you can see it is extremelly clear how or what Jehovah means about his Singleness and Omnipotency. I cannot aurgue here He is the Almighty, Now compare it to the New Testament whereas the Trinitarian have corrupted the translation in such a manner that we can only come to crazy conclusions such as "somebody is not saying the truth" or we start to question the Bible itself, but standfast, these books we hold are only translation not the real or original Bibles.The Bias translators are organized and have established the requirements of translations technics and procedures to certify, assess any given translation, they have built a government within a government.

Look at A.R. and his side kick, they talk about the NIV being a respected version and highly regarded by the community, I ask what community? The Trinitary community? of course, because anybody else that will not agree with their political translation procedures will be attacked and beat up. But lets get back on track.

You said:

How can Hebrews 1:6-9 be true unless God the Father is the same as God the Son? Otherwise, God the Father will be asking the angels (and us) to worship someone else (Jesus Christ) other than Him. He cannot do that if He is a jealous God who will not give his glory to another.

Nacho, that is not the argument here, I do understand why you are reaching to such concept, the problem here is the translated version and maintaining a neutral attitude or mind.

But let me do the Jibaro thing: But with the KJV, I like since it is poetic and presents various context different form the NIV, done with a purpose!!!
"6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

This your version:
Hebrews 1:6-9
And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."And of the angels He says, "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE." But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
"YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."

Now lets look at it in Greek:
"6 ”ôáí äc ðÜëéí åkóáãÜãw ô’í ðñùôüôïêïí åkò ôxí ïkêïõìÝíçí, ëÝãåé,
Êár ðñïóêõíçóÜôùóáí ášô² ðÜíôåò Tããåëïé èåï™.
7 êár ðñ’ò ìcí ôï˜ò PããÝëïõò ëÝãåé,
FÏ ðïé§í ôï˜ò PããÝëïõò ášôï™ ðíåýìáôá
êár ôï˜ò ëåéôïõñãï˜ò ášôï™ ðõñ’ò öëüãá,
8 ðñ’ò äc ô’í õjüí,
FÏ èñüíïò óïõ ¿ èåüò åkò ô’í ák§íá ôï™ ák§íïò,
êár ½ ¼Üâäïò ôyò åšèýôçôïò ¼Üâäïò ôyò âáóéëåßáò óïõ.
9zãÜðçóáò äéêáéïóýíçí êár dìßóçóáò Píïìßáí·
äéN ôï™ôï h÷ñéóÝí óå ¿ èåüò ¿ èåüò óïõ
hëáéïí PãáëëéÜóåùò ðáñN ôï˜ò ìåôü÷ïõò óïõ."

Note: Going to have to download the greek font software.

Nevertheless, pay attention to the word "Worship" this word is really "let do obeisance toward" so if yo also observe" angel sprits" and "Angel winds" Then again in the same scripture you will observe the word "begotten Son" and "Firstborn" denoting again the Creation of Jesus.

But something to chew on... if God is the Power that holds the world and he is the Alpha and Omega, then if you believe in the pagan dogma Trinity, How did the World, well the Universe, survived, maintain its course when Jesus Christ died, buried for 72 hours?



I will continue later, hold that thought.

[Edited by conciencia on 14th November 2001 at 13:43]