the FATHER is indeed greater than the SON...

[El_Jibaro]

[i]Anyone who is a TRUE CHRISTIAN and believes the Bible to be the WORD OF GOD, has no problem in believing in ONLY ONE GOD IN THREE PERSONS.

Then again, those who deny the SON also have trouble in acknowledging other teachings of the Bible, like the FACT that we human Beings were created in HIS Image.

Just like the FATHER, the SON and the HOLY SPIRIT are ONE BEING, human Beings have three parts to their Being: spirit, soul and body.

1 Thessalonians 5:23

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, to a TRUE CHRISTIAN, his/her spirit is the most important part of his/her being. However, to NON-Christians, his/her body is the most important part of their being. That is why the Bible calls those persons CARNAL, because they live within the realm of the physical universe. According to the Apostle Jude (not Judas Iscariot, but another Jude, who was JESUS' brother), he warns us to stay away from such men, who lack the HOLY SPIRIT:

Jude 1:17-19

But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." 19These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

The Apostle Paul warns that "natural" men cannot understand the things of GOD:

1 Corinthians 2:14

The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Since the most important part in our Being is the spirit, the second most important part is the soul, and the third important part is the body, it is not surprising that for the SUPREME BEING the FATHER is more important than the SON, and the SON is more important than the HOLY SPIRIT. That is the LOGICAL outcome of being created IN HIS IMAGE :

Genesis 1:26,27[b]

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in Our image, in Our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in His Own image,
in the image of God He created him;
male and female He created them.

So, the EVIDENCE of ONLY ONE GOD IN THREE PERSONS is abundant, but, as it is written above: it is clear that people who do not have the HOLY SPIRIT cannot grasp this, not even with a hundred foot pole, beginning with atheists .

[conciencia]

My son and I decided to add a side walk from the garage entry cement slab to the front pourch of OUR house. {Of course I pay the Mortgage, insurance and taxes} But indeed it is OUR home.

Anyway, my son and I were drawing the plans of this simple sidewalk, measuring and calculating the cost and so fourth.

My son suggested to add ceramic patio tiles on the particular sidewalk and I agreed of his Idea, of course I pay for the materials, but the final product was OUR doing since my son and I worked together as ONE, indeed for that porject WE were ONE. Of course my son is younger than I but he is my son, yet he is in me and I am in him because he is my son and I am his Father.

Jibaro do you get it, well maybe A.R.

Hasta la tuya.

[Amos]

When we have the mind of Christ should the H.Spirit not be redundant and is it not true that the Son of God is only the Son until he has matured and become fully one with God as in "My Lord and My God."

Once again I point you towards the Children of Israel who were indeed chosen out of God's favorite people but died nonetheless because they failed to mature and become fully "Is-ra-el." Their problem was unbelief that led to their rebel/repent/rebel/repent enigma and is not your notion of Christian/true Christian much the same? You seem to give away your insecurity as a Child of God with your words "True Christian" and also with your resentment of atheism. I find atheism a very honest and courageous position.

Amos

[El_Jibaro]

[i]If you do not have the Holy Spirit (which your very words betray...), you cannot have the Mind of Christ:

1 Corinthians 2:1-16[b]

1CO 2:1 When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.

1CO 2:6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:

"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him" --

1CO 2:10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:

1CO 2:16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?"

But we have the mind of Christ.

[Pregonero]

Mr. Amos, what is it with you? You really need help, because you are really messed up. One minute you are a catholic, and by default: religious. The next minute you are very sympathetic with atheists. Careful! Your papa, the pope will not like it. You may find atheism very honest and corageous, but GOD has declared it: "FOOLISHNESS". (Psalm 14:1) The reason why it is needed to differentiate between christians and true christians is, because today, even satan is going around saying he is a christian. Groups that before were offended if called christians, now are calling themselves christians, with the intension to deceive.
Get some help, for your own good!

[Edited by Pregonero on 24th November 2001 at 04:27]

[Amos]

Originally posted by Pregonero
Mr. Amos, what is it with you? You really need help, because you are really messed up. One minute you are a catholic, and by default: religious. The next minute you are very sympathetic with atheists. Careful! Your papa, the pope will not like it. You may find atheism very honest and corageous, but GOD has declared it: "FOOLISHNESS". (Psalm 14:1) The reason why it is needed to differentiate between christians and true christians is, because today, even satan is going around saying he is a christian. Groups that before were offended if called christians, now are calling themselves christians, with the intension to deceive.
Get some help, for your own good!

[Edited by Pregonero on 24th November 2001 at 04:27]

Yes I understand that atheists are impoverished believers but it takes courage to admid that the salvation they once claimed was never real. Do you not agree with this?

Satan always was a pretender and has the angel of light to mislead believers into thinking that they are saved. I somtimes use the saved/sinner complex as a test with regard to the reality of salvation. In my view a Christian ("one who is in Christ") cannot sin and I get this from 1Jn.3:9 where it says that "he who is in Christ cannot sin." From here you can go to Gal.5:1-4, (I think). Anyway, my point is that atheist are most often disgruntled ex-Christians it is just a matter of time before all(?) Christians go into this yo-yo effect.

Amos

PS to be set free form the Law is required to be set free form the conviction of sin. That's simple isn't it?

[Pregonero]

Otra vez! You need help, Amos. The Bible has no contradictions, GOD never contradicts Himeself. The problem is that since you don't have the mind of CHRIST, you see The Bible as philosophy, or science fiction.
The same apostle John, who wrote: (1 John 3:9) "Whosoever is born of GOD does not commit sin; for HIS seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of GOD"; is the same John who wrote: (1John 1:8,10) "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we say that we have not sinned, we make HIM a liar, and HIS word is not in us". What is this, a contradiction? NO!! You see, John also explains that there's sin unto death, and sin not unto death. (1John 5:16-21) What John is saying is that the word sin is very ample and could be applied to any fault, even mistakes and errors. Now, born again believers commit errors and mistakes, and by doing so, they sin. But they are not sinning unto death. So John tells us that as people of GOD, we have not yet attain perfection, but because we have been born of GOD, we cannot practice sin as a way of living. True christians cannot remain in sin. On the other hand, you could find people who profess to be christians and yet, they practice homosexuality, adultery, fornication, lies, promiscuity, love of money; which is idolatry, and so on. All these are sins unto death. Now, John states that those who practice this type of sin is of the devil, because satan does sin, since the beggining. And I add, no matter how people call themselves, if they remain in sin unto death, they are of the devil and they can be religious christians, but not true christians. That's why JESUS said: "You shall know them by their fruits".
Good day!

[Edited by Pregonero on 24th November 2001 at 22:04]