I want to improve my English...

[Eddier1]

Stan, so you think that all those folks with great problems, who run afoul of the law and moral standards are that way because of their genes, which you judge are sadly inferior to yours and others who had great parents. Well, there is a strong element of elitism in you if not discrimination against the poor and socially maladjusted. You still can't perceive that it is the social conditions that creates the social consciousness of a People. If those conditions are horrible, disque, really bad because of over 6 centuries of imperialist abuse of them through colonialism then they will in the majority not turn out like goody two-shoes as you elitists opine you are by virtue of your genes. You guys got a highly inflated opinion of yourselves, when although you haven't been forced out like those from Mariel, you have been forced out by the colonial pressures to seek unity with the oppressor by moving permanently to the U.S.. Oh, I know you want P.R. to be a winter vacation spot for you in the future, so you are concerned that the social misfits be controlled or even eliminated someway in the future, right on time-table with your retirement. You are incapable of seeing any viable solution that can socially improve the sitution in P.R. so you, like the moth, flew into the imperialist flames of the Yanquis. That is way sadder than the sadness you feel and your Dad might of felt over the social misfits that exist in Puerto Rico. Scientific socialism and not Fidelismo, whose leader also was an elitist, has proved that such social misfits can Stand Up, and built a great nation from the ruins of a disastrous nation. China proved that, while the Russkies did not. Unless the latter are simply playing a chess game with the West, and merely changed the labels of their country while covertly remaining communists. Only time will tell. But it is nevertheless true that if you change the bad social conditions, you cannot fail but improve the social consciousness of People. It isn't really hard to function among the Masses of the People once you are a true commie. It isn't as hard as Suki believes. Once truly committed to scientific socialism one can swim among those masses with the ease that a fish swims in the ocean. And a man without a real country like you, but only pretentions of being better than others, an elitist for sure, will continue to be country-less or like an ocean without water. I'm not kidding, you are a victim and in many ways worst off than the social misfits in that you think that you aren't being victimized 24/7 when you are!

EddieR

[Stanley]

Ed:

Stan, so you think that all those folks with great problems, who run afoul of the law and moral standards are that way because of their genes, which you judge are sadly inferior to yours and others who had great parents. Well, there is a strong element of elitism in you if not discrimination against the poor and socially maladjusted.

I did not mean to imply genetic inferiority. I just said that the absence of adequate parents makes a huge difference regardless of the genetic make-up. In fact I pointed out that this can be observed in all cultures and ethnic groups in the world. Maybe you have become too PC and do not like to hear the truth in simple terms.


You still can't perceive that it is the social conditions that creates the social consciousness of a People. If those conditions are horrible, disque, really bad because of over 6 centuries of imperialist abuse of them through colonialism then they will in the majority not turn out like goody two-shoes as you elitists opine you are by virtue of your genes. You guys got a highly inflated opinion of yourselves, when although you haven't been forced out like those from Mariel, you have been forced out by the colonial pressures to seek unity with the oppressor by moving permanently to the U.S..

Ed or should I say Mr PC. Now you sound like Hillary Clinton, Teddy Kennedy, and brother Jesse. Ah yes, society makes people do bad things------------- It is not their fault. However, some folks do the right thing under the exact societal pressures. My parents and Suki's parents were poor and turned out OK. There must be something else other than the so called "society made me do it" kind of criminal.

Regarding my move to the US: I actually consider it a mistake and would do things differently if I had a chance. However, relocating at age 52 when I have a good career over here would be unwise. On top of that I have five children who see Maryland as home.


Oh, I know you want P.R. to be a winter vacation spot for you in the future, so you are concerned that the social misfits be controlled or even eliminated someway in the future, right on time-table with your retirement. You are incapable of seeing any viable solution that can socially improve the sitution in P.R. so you, like the moth, flew into the imperialist flames of the Yanquis. That is way sadder than the sadness you feel and your Dad might of felt over the social misfits that exist in Puerto Rico. Scientific socialism and not Fidelismo, whose leader also was an elitist, has proved that such social misfits can Stand Up, and built a great nation from the ruins of a disastrous nation.

Believe it or not there are some aspects of Fidelismo that would help eliminate the so called ralea or undesirables. I would love to see Fidel's camps where these folks could be taught values. As of now they have nothing other than a very crappy public school system and no parents at home.

It isn't really hard to function among the Masses of the People once you are a true commie. It isn't as hard as Suki believes. Once truly committed to scientific socialism one can swim among those masses with the ease that a fish swims in the ocean. And a man without a real country like you, but only pretentions of being better than others, an elitist for sure, will continue to be country-less or like an ocean without water. I'm not kidding, you are a victim and in many ways worst off than the social misfits in that you think that you aren't being victimized 24/7 when you are!

I am sure I am also a victim and so were my parents, Suki, and her parents. But, some folks do the best they can under the circumstances.

You are correct, I do feel like a man without a country. This is the sentiment all Puerto Ricans have when they are away from home. I guess this includes YOU. It would be nice to be back home------ there is no place like home. And Puerto Rican women are the most beautiful in the world.

I don't consider myself elitist at all. I know I am more humble than you and most folks in the forum including Suki. To simply affirm that the lack of a stable home with both parents is the major cause of society turnmoil is not an elitist point of view unless you are a left wing liberal like Hillary (who really qualifies as elitist).


[Edited by Stanley on 21st July 2003 at 18:30]

[Eddier1]

Originally posted by Stanley
Ed:

Stan, so you think that all those folks with great problems, who run afoul of the law and moral standards are that way because of their genes, which you judge are sadly inferior to yours and others who had great parents. Well, there is a strong element of elitism in you if not discrimination against the poor and socially maladjusted.

I did not mean to imply genetic inferiority. I just said that the absence of adequate parents makes a huge difference regardless of the genetic make-up. In fact I pointed out that this can be observed in all cultures and ethnic groups in the world. Maybe you have become too PC and do not like to hear the truth in simple terms.


You still can't perceive that it is the social conditions that creates the social consciousness of a People. If those conditions are horrible, disque, really bad because of over 6 centuries of imperialist abuse of them through colonialism then they will in the majority not turn out like goody two-shoes as you elitists opine you are by virtue of your genes. You guys got a highly inflated opinion of yourselves, when although you haven't been forced out like those from Mariel, you have been forced out by the colonial pressures to seek unity with the oppressor by moving permanently to the U.S..

Ed or should I say Mr PC. Now you sound like Hillary Clinton, Teddy Kennedy, and brother Jesse. Ah yes, society makes people do bad things------------- It is not their fault. However, some folks do the right thing under the exact societal pressures. My parents and Suki's parents were poor and turned out OK. There must be something else other than the so called "society made me do it" kind of criminal.

Regarding my move to the US: I actually consider it a mistake and would do things differently if I had a chance. However, relocating at age 52 when I have a good career over here would be unwise. On top of that I have five children who see Maryland as home.


Oh, I know you want P.R. to be a winter vacation spot for you in the future, so you are concerned that the social misfits be controlled or even eliminated someway in the future, right on time-table with your retirement. You are incapable of seeing any viable solution that can socially improve the sitution in P.R. so you, like the moth, flew into the imperialist flames of the Yanquis. That is way sadder than the sadness you feel and your Dad might of felt over the social misfits that exist in Puerto Rico. Scientific socialism and not Fidelismo, whose leader also was an elitist, has proved that such social misfits can Stand Up, and built a great nation from the ruins of a disastrous nation.

Believe it or not there are some aspects of Fidelismo that would help eliminate the so called ralea or undesirables. I would love to see Fidel's camps where these folks could be taught values. As of now they have nothing other than a very crappy public school system and no parents at home.

It isn't really hard to function among the Masses of the People once you are a true commie. It isn't as hard as Suki believes. Once truly committed to scientific socialism one can swim among those masses with the ease that a fish swims in the ocean. And a man without a real country like you, but only pretentions of being better than others, an elitist for sure, will continue to be country-less or like an ocean without water. I'm not kidding, you are a victim and in many ways worst off than the social misfits in that you think that you aren't being victimized 24/7 when you are!

I am sure I am also a victim and so were my parents, Suki, and her parents. But, some folks do the best they can under the circumstances.

You are correct, I do feel like a man without a country. This is the sentiment all Puerto Ricans have when they are away from home. I guess this includes YOU. It would be nice to be back home------ there is no place like home. And Puerto Rican women are the most beautiful in the world.

I don't consider myself elitist at all. I know I am more humble than you and most folks in the forum including Suki. To simply affirm that the lack of a stable home with both parents is the major cause of society turnmoil is not an elitist point of view unless you are a left wing liberal like Hillary (who really qualifies as elitist).


[Edited by Stanley on 21st July 2003 at 18:30]

No this is not a question of Liberalism, Hillary style. You're mistaken too when you fail to recognize that I am referring to the 'gnitty-gritty', or let's cut to the chase concerning the protracted and complex nature of what genes can do to people, also on an individual basis. The statistical coefficients prove that irregardless of exceptions, some persons who somehow escape the averaged- out invariant relation of the scientific law, the majority of the factors involved in the equation of the invariant relation still manifest the efficacy of the discovered law. You may oversimplify, but it is a matter of the double helix which has been mapped as the structure of the genes. Let's say 50% goes to heredity, and 50% goes to the enviromental and/or social conditions. That would be about right, without having to resort to the Mr. PC stinger. The PC has nothing to do with that; it has all to do with being scientific and using scientific method. Now where did I say that the social conditions where centered on the home enviroment solely and only as you said? You conveniently ignored any reference I made to the social conditioning being one of imperialist causes due to over 6 centuries of colonialism upon the Puerto Ricans. How can you ignore that I flat out refer to communism and not to some phoney Liberalism that borrowed some stuff from us, and distorted it so that they could skim the wealth of the nation and its colonies, while bleeding-heart style saying that their social reforms would solve the social problems? They dissemble and deceive, because they have proved time and again that they only provide a band-aid solution that does not solve the social problems, it only keeps the socially maladjusted and/or poor trapped in a social welfare system, which keeps the Liberals afloat and skimming the wealth of the nation by implementing gov't programs that do not last. Like for example the War on Poverty Programs that in the end failed and made many of the Liberals wealthy, since most ran those programs, and skimmed shamelessly into their own pockets. We Commies, who are true ones, always Combat Liberalism, and if you don't know that, then you may know it now. Let me say that I am very satisfied that you do realize, now!, that you are a victim, irregardless of your eliteness and false assumption that you got more humility than Suki and me. At least that is a start towards you being more aware of what is going on, and can be very productive to your knowledge, with or without the abrasive remark about the P.C. and a Mr. PC stinger. In conclusion, let me underscore that things in society, Puerto Rican or otherwise, are not as simple or homey as you opine; they are really quite protracted and complex.

Have a Nice Day,
EddieR

[Suki]

Well, there is not a single line in Eddie's posts I disagree with on the sense of the social conditions issue. Stan, you know very well I disagreed with your premise that the family and the set of parents determine the child's potential and stuff. That goes against every decent expert educator I have run accross. I talked about my Lupita. Who by the way just graduated. And she had the really bad conditions. Single mom with kids from different dads, no education, no skills, struggling constantly. Etc. She easily could have been a statistic and her brother did become one. So many beautiful youth in bad social conditions being wasted by a discriminatory system. The Communists are right on target about that. 100%. And that is where Marxist theory is SO TRUE. You must be changing the social conditions first. That is the determinant factor. In my book it is, and all those liberals who (it is true what Eddie mentioned) only throw bandaids on the problem, just perpetuate the cycle of oppression. They are not truly interested in liberating the underclass or the working class or even giving working class and underclass children a level playing field. No. Es todo mentira. If they were they would remove property tax based system in the public education system in the USA. And change the entire system from top to bottom. WITH proven methodologies for educating poor and working class kids and making them as or more educated than those elite snobs in private schools. They know what works. THEY FLATLY refuse to do that. Why? Amenaza el sistema socioeconomico. Negate it all you want. I have seen the reality. And after dealing with that for 30 years Yautia knows what is the truth, in many arenas that have to deal with social and class discrimination. Tu, are living with pajaritos prenados in that sense Stanley. De veras.

And Eddie it has been my experience that it is best to circulate and socialize with all groups. I live in a poor neighborhood. And I mostly have friends from my hospital scrubbing days and working class people. My mother never was an elitist and neither am I. How can I be si vengo de gente pobretona....Stanley here called me a burguesa. And you agreed in that one post with him. I hate to confess it. But that hurt me Eddie. Cuz, I never have been one. And never liked the burgueses. Never. I never had any doubts that I was not part of the elite. Never could be. All of them know each other and stick to each other. Yeah, right if I had ambitions of being part of the burguesia I would married that Andres guy. Not Papotito. And besides, who am I? I aint from those old criollo families on the island with casas en Europa, and one in San Juan and another en el campo with servants and private educations. No, Stanley. Burguesa I am not. I am not middle class either. My house certainly isn't. Lol. Not when you get Mexicans with pirated tapes to sell to you knocking on your door everyday. Lol. I don't consider myself an intellectual either. Not like I think of Eddie as one.

I wish Eddie would tell me how he moves through the masses. Cuz I feel that is all I do. Run around with the working class folks all day, every day. Cuz that is who I am as well. And my mother long ago abandoned her ivory tower, for dealing with the masses. Long ago.

There are some excellent sociologists Stanley. They prove that the working class and the underclass regardless of 'optimum' parents or not, when their social conditions change, they change. People are very much products of their history and their environments. You are not going to tell me like that elitist racist on South Africa.com that blacks in those South African townships have problems with violence, domestic abuse, alcoholism and etc, due to their parents only and not to the oppressive state of Apartheid perpetuated by the Racist governments they had had. The dude said he thought apartheid and the exploitation by white elites in SA had NOTHING to do with the social maladjustment problems and crime in the black townships in Johannesberg and Capetown. Estaba loco....social conditions breed all kinds of things. Change the social conditions and you have a totally different response and level of consciousness of the people living there. That is a reality. You want data and studies Stanley? That is all sociologists do, is study this in depth. I will give you Carol Staack and Sidney Mintz, and Jay McLeod, and even Oscar Lewis. And so many more. All proving that the underclass and the 'masses' are systemically treated and kept in certain conditions for the exclusive benefit of the social structure and the needs of modern capitalism. You can refute it. But you are going to have to work hard. Lol. And it won't convince. De veras.

Suki.

[Eddier1]

Suki, thanks for verifying that you pick and choose from our orthodox communism what you wish. But when you are shown cracks in your socialism that reveal your bourgeois traits, you cry as always 'you hurt me' as if the criticism was not based on data, but vindictive subjective emotions on the part of commies. It is astounding that you continue with that schtick; it doesn't work; you either are criticized on what you write, and are approved or disapproved on that critieron. Stop making it a subjective issue with us commies, maybe with Stan it is, but then you have never said to Stan, 'oh you hurt me' and he has said reams of things originating from him, and some of which have validity. Yes, you are a "burquesita" in that, for example, you own your own home, something which the proletariat usually never do. You move among the working class everyday, well what an irrelevant thing to say, when the working class is the largest class of people in the entire world. How could you avoid them, oh yes, by taking your famous long walks to see the astounding scenery of Colorado, in the wild and beautiful, all bourgeois stuff and so typical of the Liberals who love to take long walks to see the scenery, ahem.. funded by the wealth they have skimmed from the nation. You got plenty of bourgeois traits in you; sex and violent encounters fascinate you; don't deny it! And Stan who is more adept at seeing those traits, because he is bourgeois 100% has classified you as of that class. You are simply slumming when you espouse proletarian causes; how bourgeois and elitist of you! I am sick and tired of you trying to intimidate us commies; we can't be fooled by such garbage. Geez, choose one side or the other; but damn you make a decision and stand by it; stop the trimming from one side to the other; it really makes you a person without any credibility. Punto.

[Stanley]

Suki and Ed:

I always had an understanding of what you say about how to get ahead.

To have a good set of parents implies that one also had a good set of grandparents , a good set of great grandparents, and so on and so on. It all comes down from the abolengo. An I agree with Ed it is not genetic, but related to the environment of our ancestors.

I this sense I am a victim since I only know my family for four generations (counting mine). I will never be the recipient of a huge inheritance and when I bought my 1st home I had to save all the money for the down paymant on my own. I know of many Gringos who have been in this country for many generations who received large sums of money from relatives to buy a home inmediately after they got married.

In the end is the abolengo---------------- and those who descend from opressed groups will have a hard time competing and hence Ed calls them victims.

Suki I guess you are a victim of Cristobal Colon and Ponce de Leon---- just kidding. In any event I cannot glorify or celebrate my so called victim status as this serves no purpose. If I consider myself a victim 24/7 I would lose my motivation and would become a depressed guy.

Ed:

So what if Suki has Burguesita traits? What is the big deal? NOt everybodty can have the same dedication you have. In a prior post I told you that you were like a devoted priest who had taken a vow of poverty and celibacy. OTOH, Suki is more like a faithful parish member who is very religious but not sure about becoming a nun to take the vows. There is a different level of commitment, but you should celebrate her status and not expect her to join the clergy as you have. Yes Ed!!!!!!! you are a man of the cloth.

[Suki]

Intimidate you? Hombre, como puedo? You know very well, I think you have a strong personality. And if Senator McCarthy, WWII fascists, and many other things you have faced could not intimidate you. How could you think one regular Azuquita in some internet site would dare to try? Lol. I aint got nothing to intimidate you with Eddie. Nor is that my mission here. Unless you consider intimidation just having nice thoughts about how you are doing in July in New York City. And wanting to see a picture of your ship. And wondering how much pipe tobbacco you have been smoking lately. And being hopeful of when I come back I may read something of yours educational. And do you know when my husband and I bought our little place here....it was cheaper than paying rent. And the place was uninhabitable. Lol. You are right, subjective feelings are not good. Will you throw some of that deep strength my way Eddie....I think I am going to need it.

I am worried about so many things right now Eddie. And I wish I could share that with you. But, it is not to be. I will just enjoy your posts while I can. You know all people's happiness can be ephimeral in this world. And those core values we must have in place when we have our black holes coming.....forget it. You take care of yourself Senor Eddie. And rest. And do your duties here.

Stanley. Nos vemos.

Suki.


Eddie, I got to take those long walks. If I don't, I run the risk of health problems with my BAD genes. Inherited from the paternal side. Aint nothing liberal or socialist about long walks. It is called not getting your feet cut off or going blind from elevated sugar problems. Yes, Stanley says many things. I don't think anything that he has said I have felt hurt over. Ever. And I think the reason is I don't have those deep feelings for the man like I have for you. Mr. Eddie. I have never emailed him, he has never had me send him my pic. In fact I only talk to him on these threads. Now, if you have suggestions on how to become completely neutral emotionally towards a person like yourself that I have read for two years. And I find so much fun to read. Then go ahead. Give me step-by-step instructions on how to not care what you say at all. And I will follow it. But, I would not like that. I do care still about what you say. But, I am going to respect your boundaries. What do you want me to do? In terms of addressing you Eddie? I will respect it. De verdad. No quiero hacer o decir algo ofensivo. I recognize what I find true and say so. Is that wrong? Working class people---hey, that is what I am. Aint no doubt in my mind. Lol. Truly. You take care of yourself in New York Eddie. And I am going to work on being objective. Being as objective as I can. Eddie, can you tell me what you most find great about that Community you are so dedicated to? Because, I want to read how much that strength you have comes from being part of that communal mind set. Cuz, I want to know. Cuidate que no quiero nada excepto disfrutarte en este website por muchos annos mas.


[Edited by Suki on 22nd July 2003 at 05:51]