What is destiny?

[IDeJesus]

Is our fate pre-determined? Is there such a thing as destiny? Are we all programmed for what our life is to be? Or is life and death pure chance? Let's talk about it.

[ABEJORRO]

51st STATE = Puerto Rico Libre de
INDEPENDENTISTAS
That is OUR DESTINO!!!!!!!!!!!!!




[This message has been edited by ABEJORRO (edited 27 October 1999).]

[F_D_B]

IDeJesus:
I do not believe that anything is predetermined per se. Destiny is the path to fate. People make the mistake and think that there is only one path in life and that path has to be found to attain true happiness. I think that as long as you find one path, happiness is just around the corner.

Leave it to our friend Abejorro to bring politics into a discussion that has to do with the bigger picture that is life.

[Carlos_Marrero]

Destiny? As in pre-destination? Or as in pre-formationism?

The pathways that our lives follow are the result of complex, dynamic interactions between human intensions-purposes and circumstantial conditions. The interesting thing is that neither of these factors is truely independent of the other. The moves we make help shape our conditions, and our conditions feed directly and even unconsciously into the substance of our actions. Hence, we constantly and inevitably express the unfolding spirals that move inexhorably forward through revolutions that transform action into circumstance and circumstance back into action, ad infinitum. In other words (smile) we may influence the course of our lives, but like a rafter moving down a stream, the overall direction of our lives cannot ever be fully determined by our purposive activity.

[This message has been edited by Carlos.Marrero (edited 01 January 2000).]

[El_Jibaro]

I used to believe in Carl Sagan, evolution and U.F.O’s. I was a teenager then, and anything with the aura of technology and a big name in science impressed me. Until years later, when I discovered the Bible, got a Masters in Science in Mechanical Engineering, and discovered that Sagan became so poetic in his documentaries because he smoked marihuana.

That said, I will say a few words on Destiny. Most, if not all religions, believe in a Fate, a Destiny. The notion of having your life set in stone and not being able to change anything that will happen contradicts the idea of Free Will. Then one naturally makes the question: why make any effort at all to be better? In some places like India, and the Middle East, if you help someone who is down and out you may be doing them a disservice, so therefore do not help them (the corollary of it, do not help the downcast).

Instead of going into the endless spirals of a feed-back loop of environment and genetics, the Bible starts the whole deal with a simple test: two perfects humans in a perfect place with only one rule – they could eat the fruits of all the trees of their forest except one. They were not raised by a dysfunctional family. They lacked nothing (abundant food, a tropical paradise). They were smart enough to name every animal in their forest. At the end they chose to change their happiness for a lie. How many people you know like them? They grow up in the best of families, yet they choose drugs, or a destructive relationship (things that are basically a LIE).

According to the Bible we human beings then have a Right to Choose. That Right (Derecho) does not mean that all the available choices are valid. People choose drugs over food everyday, self-destruction over self-preservation. That is why we have to Choose Right (Correcto). Right Choices mean that there are transcendent values above ourselves. That is one of the first things I learned in Science: you don’t trust in eyeball measurements, you trust in measurements using OBJECTIVE INSTRUMENTS. Similar to navigation, Columbus did not steer the Santa Maria on gut instincts alone, he had to rely on a magnetic compass and on astronomical measurements.

Thus, according to the Bible, humans have a Free Will, but to exercise that Free Will effectively humans have to depend on God to steer through their Choices. And the God of the Bible did not wait for humans to come around to the Choices to be made to ask him what to do, He preemptively manifested Himself to them and told them what to Choose. Case in point: God took two and half million slaves from Egypt, freed them, protected them, and gave them a Constitution to abide by in order to prosper as a New Nation (by the way, He made a Contract with that Nation to be under His Leadership). At the End of that Constitution He told that Nation: “This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.” - Deuteronomy 30:19,20 History says that they chose to reject the Contract every time. History shows the results of their National Choices.

That is the Perfect Example. God has a Good Plan for a Nation. He presents that Plan to the Nation. The Nation refuses to follow that Plan. As a consequence the Nation never receives the full benefits of that Plan. Therefore, God has a Destiny He has planed for each human being. But the fulfillment of that Destiny depends on OUR DECISION.

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Manuel Alonso

[hoserp]

I agree with Carlos and Jibaro. I believe destiny is based on the choices we have made. We have the free will to make our own choices and choose our own path. It is up to us to make our own "destiny".
I would like an opinion in a related matter. Jibaro touched on this. If God is all knowing he must know what is going to happen to us every step of the way. How we are going to live our lives and how, when and where we are going to die, is this destiny?, having no control of anything in what happens to us. I have given a lot of thought about this and have come to my own conclusion. I believe God knows what is going to happen to us while we walk the road of life but he does not know the path we are going to take when we come to a fork. He knows what will happen at each of the paths in front of us but not which one we will take. Now the question I am now dealing with is, how come he does not know if he is all knowing? Aren't I questioning his power? I believe in God and have faith but it is not as strong as it used to be. I am just looking for answers like the rest of us. I am trying to find my way back so please don't be too harsh. Aren't we suppose to question our faith? I think it only makes it stronger. It seems like when one question gets answer a few more pop up.

[Carlos_Marrero]

Jibaro
What a wonderful example of God's appreciation for the sovereignty of nations. You could learn from him.

Hoserp
Scriptures and tradition affirm that God is all-knowing and all-powerful. The dimensions of this being, however, do not allow us to infer from his actions a "mind" or "purpose". What I mean is that the God you are imaginning is too human, and this is where your confusion comes from. You are projecting your mind-set and your values to him, when you should be acknowledging your inability to grasp what moves him to do as he does. God's response has always been " I am who I am, and I do what I please, and who are you to question me?".

The question of devine determination and freedom of will is one of the bitter contests that have shaped the course of Church history. Scriptures are not clear on how "hard" pre-destination is. Nor do they shed much light on what means allow for whatever degree of devine determination actually governs creation. In our culture we say that El Hombre propone, pero Dios dispone. Calvin believed, with some scriptural support, that the will of God expresses itself even in the decisions of individuals. (For instance, consider the way the Old Testament portrays God as operating invisibly in the background, influencing the decisions of rulers, so that his plan is realized. Kings that thought they were exercising their prerogatives, were actually simply the instruments of God. Or, another example is the claim that those that accept or reject the sacrifice of Christ do so because the Spirit of God moves them to do so, whatever freedom they may think they have, and not withstanding the fact that an invitation has been extended to them. Boldly, the assertion is made that one one cannot accept "salvation", unless the "Spirit" moves him to. Indeed, the subset of those that are to be saved are described as a group of people that, although gathered throughout human history, does not grow, but rather moves towards some number which has already been set from the beginning of time.) According to Calvin's interpretation, God has a plan and the World moves inexhorably in harmony with that plan. God uses seemingly contradictory forces to shape the course of that World, even introducing agents that "feel" they are free (e.g., Lucifer, ever one of us) and deliberately oppose what they see as God's will. He does it "for his glory". Resistance is a means to a God that has not just "oversight", but infinite control (sovereignty), over everything his hands have made. We simply fail to see how "free will" and "purposiveness" can serve another being because in our condition as humans, these things mark the boundaries between us and impose limits on us. But to a God that is All in All, everything, consciousness and will included, is but an instrument. This is truly a force beyond the grasp of human understanding, which is why we need to simply accept that God does as he pleases for his own glory. Meanwhile, we must forego any assumptions about what he is made of, how he is organized, what his motivations are, what thoughts he entertains, what he desires, and so on. Anthropomorphizing God does not help. Nothing seems to. Be grateful that he at least allows you to enjoy the ride. {smile}

These days, I am concerned with more modest things. I believe we must endeavor to make our lives rational and good. We can do this on a very modest level, sure enough, but these modest steps are, in a World where God is All in All, also the steps of God. The small scale of our human actions is deceptively devine!!!

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A map of the world that does not
include Utopia is not worth even glancing at, for it leaves out the
one country at which Humanity is always landing. And when Humanity
lands there, it looks out, and, seeing a better country, sets sail.
Progress is the realisation of Utopias.
OSCAR WILDE

[This message has been edited by Carlos.Marrero (edited 19 January 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Carlos.Marrero (edited 19 January 2000).]