General Theorem of Existence

[Suki]

I know Raul is totally against religion and so are you Eddier1. I respect your beliefs (or lack of belief). My mother thinks religion is the opiate of the masses too. I do not judge people based on if they share my religious or spiritual belief system. I think both of you have great intrinsic value and have a very important role and voice to play and be heard in today's society. I do not think you or anyone is else is destined to be condemned to hell. That is ignorant superstitious garbage. I will not expound on my religion in this thread because it is primarily a discussion about science and philosophy. I only see people through their intentions and their actions and consequently how they cope on a social level.

People who judge others based on dogmatic paradigms and religious fanaticism I do not agree with at all. I respect people's thoughts, and I find science a worthy investment in our time and finances in the pursuit of as both of you say "truth".

I have found in my experience that rebels and people who question established and conventional religious belief systems tend to be the most highly intelligent and the most creative thinkers. They usually are the fountains of original thought. Being a statehooder, capitalist, middle-class person with Judeo-Christian values in this society is a VERY SAFE AND RISK-FREE THOUGHT SYSTEM to believe in. You will not encounter any impediments to your own advancement. I also think these kind of thinkers are self-serving usually and I try not to be judgemental, some people just want to be left alone and to have a prosperous and least-problem free life. But people who think against the social grain definitely I will listen too, because they go against the accepted. Why? Most such as Raul and you Eddier1 are truly interested in change. You recognize that not everything is the way it should be and could be and must be transformed into something not tried before (in a social or philosophical context at least), I have great respect for that nature of thought.

I am sure both of you have led long and challenging lives in which good and bad has touched you. That you continue to go against the grain says something about your characters. None of us are perfect and I am sure you will agree with me that we make mistakes. Carino, Suki.

[Eddier1]

Originally posted by Suki
I know Raul is totally against religion and so are you Eddier1. I respect your beliefs (or lack of belief). My mother thinks religion is the opiate of the masses too. I do not judge people based on if they share my religious or spiritual belief system. I think both of you have great intrinsic value and have a very important role and voice to play and be heard in today's society. I do not think you or anyone is else is destined to be condemned to hell. That is ignorant superstitious garbage. I will not expound on my religion in this thread because it is primarily a discussion about science and philosophy. I only see people through their intentions and their actions and consequently how they cope on a social level.

People who judge others based on dogmatic paradigms and religious fanaticism I do not agree with at all. I respect people's thoughts, and I find science a worthy investment in our time and finances in the pursuit of as both of you say "truth".

I have found in my experience that rebels and people who question established and conventional religious belief systems tend to be the most highly intelligent and the most creative thinkers. They usually are the fountains of original thought. Being a statehooder, capitalist, middle-class person with Judeo-Christian values in this society is a VERY SAFE AND RISK-FREE THOUGHT SYSTEM to believe in. You will not encounter any impediments to your own advancement. I also think these kind of thinkers are self-serving usually and I try not to be judgemental, some people just want to be left alone and to have a prosperous and least-problem free life. But people who think against the social grain definitely I will listen too, because they go against the accepted. Why? Most such as Raul and you Eddier1 are truly interested in change. You recognize that not everything is the way it should be and could be and must be transformed into something not tried before (in a social or philosophical context at least), I have great respect for that nature of thought.

I am sure both of you have led long and challenging lives in which good and bad has touched you. That you continue to go against the grain says something about your characters. None of us are perfect and I am sure you will agree with me that we make mistakes. Carino, Suki.

Nice to see you again Suki. I was able to read some of your excellent posts in the Politics forum, and realized how on top of things you were, even though you must have a very busy schedule.

But what has prompted the witnessing on your part of religionist sentiments? Are you not really secure in your beliefs, such that you contrast them to my "absence of belief" or atheism? Really, in other sectors, other than religion, I do have a belief system that is operative. But I don't like to speak of it too openly, especially to religionists, because when I have, they for the most part misunderstand it readily and then are quite condescending in an arrogant, holier-than-thou, way. You see Suki, my "belief" is fundamentally connected to the fact that we humans belong to the animal kingdom..oh I know Raul will probably say they we are only robots and not animals, but bracketing that for a moment, let me tell you that there is such a thing as a basic "belief" that all animals share. For our species, the only example that comes to mind now, is like when we look at the door of our homes from inside them, and sense our belief that someone or something may come through those doors. That staring action toward our doors is some evidence of that basic animal belief.

If that sounds too simple for you and Raul, I would say that belief is essentially a very simple thing, regardless of all the blah, blah, and religionist theological construction done by the conventionally recognized "true believers". Their mystical obscurantism and "hidden truths" agendas are merely lots of baloney. It is usually a relection of their superstitions and ignorance.

Your Mom is correct Suki. And I too accept that religion is the opiate of the masses.

Regards Boricua,
EddieR

[Raulgr]

Suki,

Well, you certainly do have my number! In looking for the truth of practically any matter, I generally use the following rule of thumb: First, I ask what the average citizen believes, then I go to the opposite, and there the truth is most often found. I've never been a "yes man". I wasn't even a "yes kid". My dad (100 percent Puerto Rican, schooled in the European tradition) advised me early on to think for myself. I believe that even he was a bit surprised at the skeptic he created. I agree with you that original thinking does require a certain irreverence of spirit, and that there are happier roads that one might travel (IGNORANCE truly is BLISS). While I also agree that none of us are immune to error, I do think it important to at least endeavor to avoid making the SAME MISTAKES, AGAIN and AGAIN!

I have enjoyed our conversation, Suki. Even where we disagree, your charm, insight, wit, and clarity of expression are very agreeable.

Regards, Raul

[Eddier1]

[quote]Originally posted by Raulgr
[b]Suki,

Well, you certainly do have my number! In looking for the truth of practically any matter, I generally use the following rule of thumb: First, I ask what the average citizen believes, then I go to the opposite, and there the truth is most often found.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Ahaha, that's a good one Raul! LOL

Regards Boricua,
EddieR

[Suki]

You know when I am distressed or agitated I take out this old, ancient Anazasi bowl that I dug up from Chaco canyon in New Mexico the analysis from the Natural History Museum in Denver places it at 3,000 BC and I look at its perfectly preserved black and white geometric designs. And I think that it has survived so much and miraculously is still mostly intact....and I think what a privelege it was to have the Apache nation give it to my mother and I for our work with them. And how through so much pain they never lost their cohesive humanity and their innate generosity, it gives me hope for the future looking at the relic of perfection that the bowl represents...I have had a gorgeous life, a husband who I have enjoyed being with mentally, spiritually and physically, parents who came from illeterate farmers and dishwashers and garment district factory workers working class families and through their strong spirits and extremely intelligent minds (both my parents are 100% Puerto Rican Mami from Naranjito and Papi from Bayamon) were able to get advanced formal educations and became politically active people and in my father's case artists at the same time. A sister who is very smart too and soo funny (she got through college doing stand-up comedy) in San Francisco (she is a lawyer now and works as a human resources manager for artists and dj's in thousands of southern California radio stations) she is in Barcelona as we speak recruiting artists for a production in San Francisco.
And I love what I do. I translate all kinds of written material from Spanish to English and from English to Spanish and I work part-time for the DNHM in artifact analysis and I give lectures on Urban Anthropology (my specialty). I love to dance and also teach gourmet cooking classes for Colorado Free University when I can. I win cooking competitions in more than 5 ethnic cuisines including Puerto Rican cooking. My husband is spoiled rotten and even expensive Restaurant fare tastes inferior to him, he's been married to me 17 years and all my friends say I cater to his every gustatory whim of his too much.

Well, back to a philosophical question Raul. I am starting to read the Carl Sagan book "The Demon-Haunted World" and I must say it is a very absorbing and great critique of religious irrationality. Yet, the world contains many wondrous things even to such a respected scientist as the late Carl Sagan. (I loved his books Contact, Cosmos and The Dragons of Eden). We on this planet had a beginning and will eventually have a sun who will go nova and then take our solar system with it, do you think the universe is so finite and sterile as to only have this mediocre solar system as the only one who contains "intelligent" life? Just wanted to have such a skeptic as yourself try to answer that one Raul. Amor y besos para los dos, Suki.

[Suki]

My mama who you have more than a passing ideological resemblance too (and whom I adore) said as an answer to my question: "IF extra-terrestrials come knocking on my door and asking for me to solve their problems like all the boricuas, mexicanos and every other loco with an education problem do then I will be the first to be a true believer. Otherwise si no los veo y no los oigo sigo no creyendo...." Esa mujer siempre me hace reir.

[Suki]

I am old-fashioned and believe in respecting my elders. And I respect your beliefs (all of them Eddier1) your politics, your theories or spiritual intuitions and your personal philosophy.

I would not be surprised that you were married, divorced, single or widowed. You are you and all of your life experiences good and bad. I like you. I am sure you have had your relationships and have learned from them good things and bad things. That is the nature of life.

I just hope someone special loves you more than their own life right now. For it might sound silly to such analytical men of science as you Eddier1 and to Raul (I wonder how old Raul is approximately) he is sounding more and more like a man in his early 40's to me. But I have been through some horrible stuff, and now I long to become dust (hopefully long into the future) mixed with my husband's dust, and if I could give my life to save his I would do it without hesitation for I love him more than my own life. He has proven to be barnone the greatest man I have ever had the pleasure to meet. Thank God we are still relatively young and hopefully have many years of married life ahead of us.

And what is wrong with seeing our resemblance to the animal kingdom? I find animals to be the loveliest creatures on earth. They are perfect in their own way and pure in intent and our feelings for them can be a stronger bond than even our own kinship ties. If they are angry they have legitimate reason, if they attack they have a legitimate purpose for the aggression, if they mate they do so for a real purpose without any manipulation or ulterior motive involved. If they are pleased or happy or peaceful they live the moment and enjoy it to the maximum. They are champions at living in the present and know how to live a Buddhist philosophy better than the best Buddhist abbots.

So, I will not look down on your creencias EVER Eddier1. Adios. Y muchisimo mas carino especial para ti Eddier1, Suki.