General Theorem of Existence

[Raulgr]

Originally posted by Suki
Well, back to a philosophical question Raul. I am starting to read the Carl Sagan book "The Demon-Haunted World" and I must say it is a very absorbing and great critique of religious irrationality. Yet, the world contains many wondrous things even to such a respected scientist as the late Carl Sagan. (I loved his books Contact, Cosmos and The Dragons of Eden). We on this planet had a beginning and will eventually have a sun who will go nova and then take our solar system with it, do you think the universe is so finite and sterile as to only have this mediocre solar system as the only one who contains "intelligent" life? Just wanted to have such a skeptic as yourself try to answer that one Raul. . .

Suki,

Intelligence, charm, and a 5-star cook? Suki, you're a dream! That husband of yours is one lucky guy!

Glad you're enjoying Sagan. Are we alone in the universe? Any guess that I could hazard on that would be uninformed at best. I have to defer to the viewpoint of Sagan (and others) that, on the sheer numbers, the probability of extraterrestrial intelligent beings is quite high (possibly approaching a certainty). That assumes that conditions conducive to the spontaneous development of such organisms are relatively commonplace in our universe, a big assumption. That assumption might not hold, in which case that conclusion would not follow. However, as I mentioned in another post, in some sense the question is moot, as the distances involved in even our own galaxy, much less between our galaxy and other galaxies, are so vast as to render the possibility of alien contact virtually non-existent.

OK, I can't stay quiet. If you could read just one more book in your life, that would HAVE TO BE "Dreams of a Final Theory" by Steven Weinberg, Nobel Laureate in theoretical particle physics. After reading the first two chapters, I can say unequivocally that it is the most incredible exposition of reality ever written for non-physicists, a reality far more strange than fiction, simply beyond the imagination of the vast majority of humankind who are presently unfamiliar with it (the average individual's awareness of scientific knowledge of the physical universe is estimated to be 100 years behind the present state of that knowledge}. The subject is the ultimate laws governing the universe. Don't walk, RUN to your nearest bookstore!

No one should go to his or her grave with not so much as a glimpse of the realm in which they lived! Of all tragedies that are, that is the greatest among them!

Regards, Raul

[lucky5]

As eliquent and seemingly insightful as this may seem, it is sad to think anyone would use time (which obviously is of no significence to the writter) to make such a complex view of life. Your time would be much better spent in prayer and simply accept God. If you need a more simplistic summery of the Truth, why not just pick up a Bible?

[Eddier1]

Suki, I got a most important request to make to you. It is about the fact that Nacionalista is leaving as the moderator of our Politics forum. And we all need urgently an excellent replacement for him, to work with Leticia and provide us with a superior ambience to write our posts and discuss issues in an educated and socially responsible manner. In my opinion, no one would be more qualified to work with Leti than you Suki. Of course, I know how busy you are with your anthropology schedule and your other interests, but you do from time to time at least read our posts, and then comment when you think it is necessary.
So I ask you, in the light of how on top of things you are, if you could some how or way find some time to be our new moderator of the Politics Forum? I'm 100% certain that Leticia would be most satisfied to work with you, since from what I have seen of your discussions with one another, you get along great.

Suki, we need ya! You could save our forum from going down the path it has been going, reverse the direction it was going, and that would be an improvement to say the least.

Please Suki try to contact Leticia, because I am sure she will clear the path for you to be our new moderator, one who understands exactly what is going on there.

Sincerely Boricua,
EddieR

P.S. You might say why don't I try. Suki, it is because you are younger than I, and have that dynamic, bright, and lovely way about you. In my opinion, you would be really great as our new moderator!

[Raulgr]

Originally posted by lucky5
As eliquent and seemingly insightful as this may seem, it is sad to think anyone would use time (which obviously is of no significence to the writter) to make such a complex view of life. Your time would be much better spent in prayer and simply accept God. If you need a more simplistic summery of the Truth, why not just pick up a Bible?

Didn't I address that point? How about . . . because, in your own words, it is simplistic! (Read that: I don't have time for fairy tales or ghost stories. There is way too much beauty in reality to spend time on unreality!)

For the more definitive answer to your question, please do visit the Secular Web [http://www.infidels.org/] philosophy forums of the internet infidels discussion board.

Regards, Raul

[Suki]

And I have found that many Christian sects do not like to be asked difficult questions. I have met some extremely well-educated Catholic Jesuitas and Nuns who were not afraid of tough questions. But many of the fundamentalist Christian sects when they can not give cut and dried and pat answers to questions about their faith usually resort to what in my religion is referred to as "Religious exploitation or coercion", what does that mean? That you should believe in the same religious dogmas as I do because if you don't you are going to burn in an eternal lake of hellfire and brimstone.

In other words "Believe like I do or face the wrath of hell!" if that is not religious bullying and exploitation, I don't know what is.True Christianity if practiced properly is an extremely difficult religion to live up to, because it requires the best and the brightest and the bravest human behavior. You must live as Jesus did, give away worldly possessions, work extremely hard serving your fellow man, non-judgemental existence, strength of character, forgiving and loving enemies, no lying, no stealing, (no profiteering), no greediness, purity of thoughts, purity of body, purity of action. Service, sacrifice and complete commitment to prayer and to loving humanity with all its failures, faults and defects. Very few or almost none of these "professed Christians" live up to that ideal, and because they are not good Christian examples and because they demonstrate a lack of these qualities in their own lives they use threats to convert people to their religion.

If Jesus Christ was revered and loved and respected and became through his living example the Savior of humanity it wasn't through threats and dogma or through ignorance.

I think Jesus accepted Thomas and loved him even though he was very much like Raul a skeptic that is why he is known as "doubting Thomas". Yet Jesus did not hate the Pharisees, the Romans, the Egyptians or any other ethnic group. He did not say these people are different than us the Jews and have to become Jews or they are going to die and live in everlasting hell. That is not something a great Master would say. Most of these modern interpretations of the Bible are completely false and distorted. In addition, I think many Protestant sects do not do enough historical and biblical research on ancient Aramaic and Hebrew scrolls and documents that the modern and varied versions of the Bible are derived from.

In a fascinating series of advanced courses that I took a few years back on comparative religions I found some very interesting realities. Such as, many versions of the Bible used by Christian fundamentalists are extremely different in wording, are missing whole chapters and important parts that bear little or no resemblance whatsover to the more ancient documents. Also in Constantinople a queen and her descendants disagreed with some important parts of the original biblical teachings and had them removed from all holy books. The only truly original version that was saved from her was burned during of all contradictions the Crusades by ignorant Christians.

Protestants have the strange belief that God shows you his favor through economic prosperity and military might. When in the distorted versions of the Bible that Christians carry around with them they have a section that says: "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man being admitted into heaven" or something similar, I need to memorize some of my favorite passages more. So in summation, con los cristianos mucha hablaera y muy poco buenos ejemplos vivos no convencera a nadie con un poco de inteligencia convertirse a su fe.

People who live what they preach I always admire. Regardless of their belief. And people who love more than hate. People who preserve and help life not kill. And people who serve instead of take all over the world regardless of religious doctrines are the true salvation of humanity. And people who are not mindless sheep and who questions the powers that be and are not fooled by a lot of lies, propaganda and falsehoods. Society hates independent thinkers, they are not open to manipulation or coercion, and therefore are a threat to the status quo. And capitalism and other systems in which the lemma "GREED IS GOOD" is the TRUTH are obviously (if you believe in Protestant and Christian fire and brimstone) ruled by something that is definitely not Christ-like.

Irrationality is scary Raul as we can testify. But unfortunately it is an integral and ancient part of humanity.

[Eddier1]

Originally posted by Suki
True Christianity if practiced properly is an extremely difficult religion to live up to, because it requires the best and the brightest and the bravest human behavior. You must live as Jesus did, give away worldly possessions, work extremely hard serving your fellow man, non-judgemental existence, strength of character, forgiving and loving enemies, no lying, no stealing, (no profiteering), no greediness, purity of thoughts, purity of body, purity of action. Service, sacrifice and complete commitment to prayer and to loving humanity with all its failures, faults and defects. Very few or almost none of these "professed Christians" live up to that ideal, and because they are not good Christian examples and because they demonstrate a lack of these qualities in their own lives they use threats to convert people to their religion.

If Jesus Christ was revered and loved and respected and became through his living example the Savior of humanity it wasn't through threats and dogma or through ignorance.

I think Jesus accepted Thomas and loved him even though he was very much like Raul a skeptic that is why he is known as "doubting Thomas". Yet Jesus did not hate the Pharisees, the Romans, the Egyptians or any other ethnic group. He did not say these people are different than us the Jews and have to become Jews or they are going to die and live in everlasting hell. That is not something a great Master would say. Most of these modern interpretations of the Bible are completely false and distorted. In addition, I think many Protestant sects do not do enough historical and biblical research on ancient Aramaic and Hebrew scrolls and documents that the modern and varied versions of the Bible are derived from.

[/b]

Suki, you seem to have a grasp of the "essence" of true Christianity as a way of life, but are you sure that in the light of what you say about not having the true and genuine interpretations of the New Testament that what you opine is not in contradiction with the fact that we lack original and genuine texts of the Gospels about Jeshua bar Joseph?

Collating, however, from the New Testament with the Old Testament, we do have supportable evidence that certain things that Jeshua said can be found in the Old Testament. This testimony about what Jeshua said is more productive about giving a true picture of his "way of life" to follow, then the entire history of Christianity from the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem by the Romans up till the present day. Herein, lies the basis of your picture of the gentle and loving Jeshua being in contradiction with what he said and endorsed when referring to favorites of his in the Old Testament. Notably, for example, was his very favorable references to the prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah. He quoted often from them, and he particularly endorsed for his disciples the Lamentations of Jeremiah, and the prophet's recommendation as a remedy and solution for the "chosen people". Jeremiah, if you recall, said that it was revealed to him by Jehova that it was the role of the Jews to "give unto all Gentiles, the cup of fury"; in short, that meant that they should always be at war with the Gentiles and destroy them with the ultimate measure of fury.
Now, Jeshua the Jewish man (viz Jesus) endorsed those prophesies of Jeremiah. And that is in contradiction with what you believe is the essence of true Christianity, and in specific with what you have opined in your post as to the loving, gentle, and forgiving Jesus.

Now, I know from earlier posts of yours that you don't mind contradictions like we rationalists and scientists do. Moreover, you feel subjectively that contradictions don't need to be resolved by scientific methods or dialectical methods of bringing the opposites of the contradiction into an antihesis in its unity, i.e., a synthesis, in short.
And from such solipsism on your part there can be no further argument. It is your subjective point of view, and that's that. Nevertheless, we objectivists will continue to carry on our investigations and scientific testing in order to try to reach the very limits of human understanding and knowledge. So even if I or Raul, or other rationalists can't agree with your assessment of Jeshua bar Joseph, the Jewish man, you don't mind if we continue our quest for knowledge, do you?

Regards Boricua,
EddieR

[Suki]

But a lot of what is written about Jesus is by secondary or terciary sources (such as prophets and disciples) and these words some of which are over 1,700 years old can contain wrong info.

Interpretation of anything related to religion is very difficult to keep in an objective mode of thought...sure I accept that your interpretation of Jesus Christ will differ from mine.

Raul will have his own conclusions as well. That reinforces my earlier points about philosophy and religion that it is a subjective theme.