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Old 3rd October 2002, 22:57
LatinoPR LatinoPR is offline
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Question

The following are some thoughts I have come up with on moving Puerto Rico from its limbo. I have read several books on Puerto Rico's political situation and will combine some desires from many politicians and visionaries. Here it goes: Puerto Rico negociates to remove Puerto Rico from U.S. sovereignty by giving up U.S. Citizenship, but allowing Puerto Ricans to renounce it afterwards or keeping it. Those not keeping U.S. Citizenship would be allowed to travel to the U.S. and enjoy reciprocal Citizenship rights like any other mainland citizen. The removal of all U.S. Agencies such as the federal courts, FBI, etc, etc., but allowing Puerto Rican agencies to consult with them to solve crimes that violate each other's coast (drug shipments, etc.) Allowing some agencies such as the social security office to oversee earned benefits by many workers and retirees. A gradual removal of benefits which can be replaced by funds earned through economical development of all island industries (tourism, factories, etc). The removal of trade restrictions with other countries. Military agreements can be reached between both Puerto Rico and the USA. Military defense can be provided by the U.S. Armed Forces until PR can defend itself. It would not benefit the U.S. to let Puerto Rico fall under the influence or be used by any other country that is unfriendly to the U.S. It can be called a Republic, a Free Associated Nation, or anything you would like. Well, that is it, what do you folks think?
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Old 6th October 2002, 13:51
Eddier1 Eddier1 is offline
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Question Please Explain...

Quote:
Originally posted by LatinoPR
A gradual removal of benefits which can be replaced by funds earned through economical development of all island industries (tourism, factories, etc). The removal of trade restrictions with other countries. Military agreements can be reached between both Puerto Rico and the USA. Military defense can be provided by the U.S. Armed Forces until PR can defend itself. It would not benefit the U.S. to let Puerto Rico fall under the influence or be used by any other country that is unfriendly to the U.S. It can be called a Republic, a Free Associated Nation, or anything you would like. Well, that is it, what do you folks think? [/b]
LatinoPR;

It has been said that the "devil is in the details". So what do you mean by the "gradual removal of benefits"?

For your info, no matter what the citizenship of a person is, if that person earned a social security check for work done under the American flag, that check is inviolable and can never be removed. The benefits will be payed for the remainder of the lifetime of the worker who earned it.

As to letting the U.S. Armed Forces continue using military bases in P.R., I think that would be unwise. Afterall, Puerto Rico does have a well-trained national guard or more accurately a well-ordered militia, with all the military training that entails. Not only that, but Puertorrique/nos in the armed forces have won four Medals of Honor, the highest awards for bravery in action. Hence, there would be no need for the continued presence of the U.S. Armed Forces, unless such forces want to pull a U.S. Navy "faena" like they have in Vieques. Puerto Rico in this day and age has no real nor viable military value for the U.S.; in short, they can do all the things they are now doing on the mainland of the United States. And the U.S. has made that a fact when they eschewed the infamous Southern Command, now hanging around or lingering for no real purpose in Puerto Rico, and have instead given total command of Latin American affairs to the Northern Command now based on the mainland of the United States.

HACIA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE BORICUAS,
EddieR
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Old 6th October 2002, 18:26
LatinoPR LatinoPR is offline
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Let me clear things up a little

Eddier, I know that we have a well trained National Guard and Reserve. They are paid and trained by the parent branch; Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard. They all foot the bill to maintain them. The states and territories do put some funds to support the National Guard only like administrative personnel (civilian employees). Complete withdrawal of monetary support of the National Guard and Reserves would be a disaster, both economically and with manpower. Not many would serve for free and many would resign. So, the defense of Puerto Rico can be provided by the U.S. for a period of time so it can give Puerto Rico time to organize a military. Right now, the Puerto Rico Air National Guard has close to 1,200 members, the Army National Guard has close to 10,000 members. The Reserves, is close to 4,000, that is to include Army, Marine, Navy, and Coast Guard reserves. The reserves would fold up operations because they are completly under the control of the federal government. The National Guard is a resource for the states and territories, overseen by the National Guard Bureau in Washington. I do know about our past brave and courages men who have won the Medal of Honor. You can read their stories on the walls of honor and Puerto Rican heros in the Puerto Rico National Guard Head Quarters in Puerta de Tierra. Now, to the statement of removal of benefits. What I meant was, the removal of benefits that no one is entitled to. Once a person dies, (granted that they worked and paid federal social security taxes), some benefits can pass on to their dependents, but once (dependents) they pass on, their dependents can not continue to receive it, because they would be citizens of Puerto Rico and not paid federal social security taxes. That is where the gradual removal would come from. I hope I clear this up.
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Old 6th October 2002, 21:24
Ecuajey Ecuajey is offline
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Talking My 2 cents....

Quote:
Originally posted by LatinoPR
Puerto Rico negociates to remove Puerto Rico from U.S. sovereignty by giving up U.S. Citizenship, but allowing Puerto Ricans to renounce it afterwards or keeping it. Those not keeping U.S. Citizenship would be allowed to travel to the U.S. and enjoy reciprocal Citizenship rights like any other mainland citizen.
In order for Puerto Rico to keep its high voter turn-out rate, USA citizenship must be revoked from all Puerto Ricans on the island, unless they move to the mainland USA. The reason is, anyone with USA citizenship who votes in the elections of a foreign nation, is revoked. Those who'll want to keep it, won't vote. That could harm Puerto Rican democracy, therefore, it should be revoked. Anyway, what will be the value of USA citizenship? Currently, it's to get up and leave when jobs aren't available, or to run away from a crime committed on the island. (Pedro Rosselló....) If Puerto Rico was to become a nation, it wouldn't be a place that so many people would have to leave for economic reasons...if not, then what would be the point of creating a Republic besides the other obvious reasons?

Quote:
Originally posted by LatinoPR
Military agreements can be reached between both Puerto Rico and the USA. Military defense can be provided by the U.S. Armed Forces until PR can defend itself. It would not benefit the U.S. to let Puerto Rico fall under the influence or be used by any other country that is unfriendly to the U.S.
I agree that Puerto Rico needs some kind of defense, but not only could we not create one that could withstand a large scale invasion, but we won't need to. What nation wants to invade and take-over Puerto Rico? None! (Don't even mention Cuba, because then I'll laugh, lol.)
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Old 6th October 2002, 23:27
LatinoPR LatinoPR is offline
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Citizenship can not be stripped unless requested by those that have it. I do not believe the stories that it can be taken away because it is a "statutory citizenship". Again, reciprocal citizenship rights, not american citizenship is what would work for many that fear losing it. Those keeping American citizenship, for whatever reason, can be allowed to vote, if the Puerto Rican government allowed it. Take the case of American Jews. Many have moved to Isreal and there, they have dual citizenship. The same case can be applied to Puerto Rico. American citizenship, just like you said, is good for leaving the island, like in my case, for work. If Puerto Ricans were allowed to move freely, like the case of the Micronesians, to work in the states, it would alleviate the economic hardships of many Puerto Rican families. Now, to your comments on voter turn out. Do you really believe that 3.8 million people would be living in Puerto Rico once it becomes independent? I believe at least half of the population would move for whatever reason they would have (losing U.S. citizenship, fear of the unknown, etc, etc.) leaving 1.6 million to live in the new republic. That would still leave a good amount of voters to decide the fate of the young republic. In reference to an invasion, I do not believe it would happen, but influence from other countries such as China could happen. Just look to Panama, where the Chinese have taken root and at this moment are running part of the canal and moving personnel into what was american military bases. That my friend, I would not like to see in Borinquen.
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Old 6th October 2002, 23:37
LatinoPR LatinoPR is offline
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More on citizenship

Ecuajey,

If you doubt my statements on citizenship. Check this site out: http://www.visalaw.com/02apr1/12apr102.html. It talks about how citizenship can be taken away. I apologize for not putting it in my original reply to your comments.
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Old 6th October 2002, 23:48
Ecuajey Ecuajey is offline
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Talking

Quote:
Originally posted by LatinoPR
Citizenship can not be stripped unless requested by those that have it. I do not believe the stories that it can be taken away because it is a "statutory citizenship". Again, reciprocal citizenship rights, not american citizenship is what would work for many that fear losing it. Those keeping American citizenship, for whatever reason, can be allowed to vote, if the Puerto Rican government allowed it. Take the case of American Jews. Many have moved to Isreal and there, they have dual citizenship.
Yes, there are many people with dual citizenship. However, I read in an article in the Puerto Rico Herald, a while back, that if a person votes in a foreign election, USA citizenship will be revoked. You don't have to ask for your citizenship to be revoked, the USA gov't could do it without you consent. Maybe those Jews don't vote in the Israeli elections, I don't know.

Quote:
Originally posted by LatinoPR
The same case can be applied to Puerto Rico. American citizenship, just like you said, is good for leaving the island, like in my case, for work. If Puerto Ricans were allowed to move freely, like the case of the Micronesians, to work in the states, it would alleviate the economic hardships of many Puerto Rican families.
Again, what would be the point? If we don't create a Republic that won't have such hardships on a large-scale, like it is now, then I see no point for independence. Micronesia's population no where compares to Puerto Rico.

Quote:
Originally posted by LatinoPR
Do you really believe that 3.8 million people would be living in Puerto Rico once it becomes independent? I believe at least half of the population would move for whatever reason they would have (losing U.S. citizenship, fear of the unknown, etc, etc.) leaving 1.6 million to live in the new republic.
I never wrote that the 4 million on the island will remain after independence. It would be good for space and resources if half the population left, but in the long run, it'll create problems. Look at the Diaspora population now. Many of them are moving back to the island, with little knowledge of PR history, culture, mentality and language. The ones on the mainland live in poverty. However, que será, será....

Anyway, the voter turn-out part is directly tied with USA citizenship, so your response to it is flawed. However, my point might be as well. Do you know any other sites that states the standards for USA citizenship? Again, if Puerto Rican citizens of the Republic will be afraid to loose their USA citizenship if they vote in PR elections, but don't want to leave the island, it could cause a problem for Puerto Rican democracy when you see very little people voting. Again, voting in a foreign election and having your USA citizenship revoked may or may not be true. However, it could be established. There are many in the USA who want to kick Puerto Rico out of the USA and into the cold, and don't want PR residents to obtain USA citizens after independence. It's like, if you want to leave, then leave everything we gave you at the door. There's some logic to that, however, Puerto Ricans have faught and died for many things we have, and that shouldn't be in vain. I believe that those who want to keep USA citizenship after independence should. However, it should be up to the USA gov't.

Quote:
Originally posted by LatinoPR
In reference to an invasion, I do not believe it would happen, but influence from other countries such as China could happen. Just look to Panama, where the Chinese have taken root and at this moment are running part of the canal and moving personnel into what was american military bases. That my friend, I would not like to see in Borinquen.
I knew you were going to write this. Why is Panamá allowing China to buy some of the canal and land in Panamá? They need the money. In the Republic of Puerto Rico, this shouldn't be the case. Therefore, no nation should be able to influence Puerto Rico like they do to the rest of Latin America. It all comes down to money. I'm not thinking of a Utopia, however, if we're going to have the chance to prepare for Puerto Rico's economic, political and cultural future, (I think it'll take more than 10 or 15 years.) then we might as well do the best we can.

P.S.
Thanks for the link you gave for the website, but it didn't work at first. Then I noticied you placed a period on the link after "htm;" I removed it and then it worked.

[Edited by Ecuajey on 8th October 2002 at 04:21]
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