We Are In A Crisis

[Eddier1]

Originally Posted by Delgado22

Eddie, I did not say too hard. It's the REALITY that is harsh. I couldn't agree more. I'm simply stating that if I had said this, I would've been villified for being controversial or something. I've always held this belief that Looie shares...

And considering how I have lived in New York City and have seen non-citizen latinos come in and "pass" our people in a matter of a generation, LF Miranda is not off with his assessment, Eddie.

I know you didn't say hard, but agreed "harsh". However, you followed with
an assumption that you would be called on the carpet or even banned if you
had said what L.F.M. said about the 'harsh reality'.

So that is an eyeopener that you feel that what Luis said was harsh on whom?,
why the Puertorriquenos that's whom whether you said it explicitly or not.

Of course. Your opinion is just as important as his, but why you feel a sort
of inferiority about yourself that you would be punished saying the same
things he did, is something that I don't quite understand.

That Dominicans can get small business loans is an anomaly, because
Indians from India and Muslims from the Middle East come to this
country and get such loans, too; and to prove it, most of the 'convenience'
stores in my area are run by the Indians and the Muslims. Where you
live it might be different, Dominicans, eh? And wait until the 20 million
undocumented Mexicans start moving east, and start up businesses also.
It will happen, make no mistake about that. They want social mobility
upwards like any of the immigrants do, not only the Puertorriquenos if
they can throw off the sterotyping that they have labored under since
their big influx into mainland U.S.A. in the 1940's. It is not that the
PRs lack courage to compete, because they proved their courage in
the wars of the 1940s and the ones after that in Korea and Vietnam,
and for their group being so small, they have the largest number of
Medals of Honor of any immigrant group that ever came to America.

So they don't deserve anyone sitting on the fence and judgementally
abusing their image, and certainly not from L.F.M. nor you about
your own people. The difference between you and L.F.M. is that he
claims to "know", while you only claim that it is your belief. That's
a significant difference between you and him.

[El_Jibaro]

Wow, this is the FIRST time in 5 years that I see Uncle Lizard post something that is not garbage. There still may be hope for the octogenarian Commie reptile, or is it another guy posting on his behalf… ?

Fray Iñigo Abbad complained that Puerto Ricans TOOK THINGS TOO EASY, and that was way back in the late 1700’s. He said that the probable cause for Puerto Rican laziness was the fact that there was no winter, nor significant seasonal changes (though when Tambora exploded in 1815, it snowed in Puerto Rico’s highest peaks). He may be correct in that, lacking a veritable winter, most Puerto Ricans saw no need to prepare for seasons of scarcity, and that after a few generations probably a cultural shift towards reduced-diligence took place, chiefly among peasants. Yet I doubt this in view that there are some crops that are markedly seasonal, like sugar cane and tobacco.

I personally suspect that the cultural trait of indolence took hold after almost 300 years in which Spain used Puerto Rico solely as a way station in its ‘industrial’ looting Mexico, Peru and places in between. Between 1520 and the middle 1700’s Puerto Rico’s cash crops (sugar cane and ginger) ended up in the markets only half of the time, so there was no significant incentive for Puerto Rican farmers to exploit Puerto Rico’s resources, except farming for subsistence, which indeed is not subject to seasonal changes. Since Puerto Rico held no promise of being a cash cow for more than two centuries, most entrepreneurial Spaniards probably had Puerto Rico at the bottom of their “I want to mover there” list. After a few centuries of this “the devil may care” culture, it is no surprise that Puerto Ricans are taking things easy.

Not only that, but four other things produce the Puerto Rican INDOLENCE CULTURE. First, Puerto Rico had for most of its 500 years only a strategic value to Spain and the US, and as such most of the time the local government was never focused on LOCAL, but on meeting the strategic value requirements of Madrid and Washington. This probably engendered an attitude of “let Madrid and let Washington take care of you, we know what is best…”

A second fact is that most Puerto Ricans came to rely on Hacendados. Only in the mountains were small farmers self-sufficient. In the plains everyone worked for the Big Boss Hacienda owner. With such, there was little room for initiative and industriousness. And coincidental to this, a large portion of Puerto Rican migrants to the US came from coastal towns.

A third fact is that since Puerto Rico was poorer than Haiti until 1940, a culture of “ANTI-uppity” values set in; that is, if anyone was too eager to get ahead, either by education, or by entrepreneurship, the local Barrio neighbors made it clear that they did not like this (like Uncle Lizard is with me…).

A fourth fact that came to set in concrete the Puerto Rican INDOLENCE CULTURE was the establishment of Socialist BIG GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS to take care of Puerto Ricans, like FDR-LBJ and Luis Munoz Marin set in place. With such, there is no need to help yourself, because ‘UNCLE JOE’ (or BIG BROTHER) will take care of you. That happened to Puerto Ricans, to African Americans and it even happened to Russians in the Soviet Union (it is interesting to see how Russians are less inclined to get ahead by their own initiative compared to Poles and other East Europeans).

There you have it, a recipe for endemic poverty. Should I add the fact that our Hispanic Culture is a ‘GOOD OLD BOY NETWORK’ Paradise? In Puerto Rico, even to become a janitor you need a godfather (or godmother), a ‘PALA’. And look at how the “independentistas” have enthroned this value with blond-blue-eye leaders who never ever share the throne with anyone. You got it!!! (Hey, in Cuba 70% of the people are Afro-Antillean and 30% are white Criollos, while 70% of their leaders are white Criollos and 30% are Afro-Antillean.)

What would be the solution? It can’t be Socialism, ‘cause Cuba is the third poorest per-capita GDP nation in Latin America, much to the chagrin of Uncle Lizard. And since Puerto Rico has been a Socialist experiment since the 1940’s, it can’t be the current SOCIALIZED-Capitalism there. The answer is two-fold. First, most Puerto Ricans are thriving in the States, except for the pockets of endemic poverty in the Bronx and other cities. That is, when Puerto Ricans do not get hand-outs, they get ahead, whether they are black-blue-red-yellow-white. Second, Puerto Rico itself needs a good jolt of privatization and the end of Socialist BIG GOVERNMENT. That one will be harder since people in Puerto Rico are not used to fending for themselves, and they are so prone to crying out for demagogue politicians to solve everything for them. And by the way people, if Puerto Rico wants to be whatever it needs to be, whether a STATE, or a thriving ‘Banana Republic’, it needs to rid itself of Socialist BIG GOVERNMENT.

The way I see it, the most probably successful to way to achieve the end of Socialist BIG GOVERNMENT in Puerto Rico is for Puerto Rico to become the 51st STATE. The other route, that of “independence” is at the mercy of Uncle Lizard’s BARRIO BOYS, and I don’t think that they aim to end Socialism. Worse yet, “independence” will end up pushing 2 million Puerto Ricans into the States, leaving the 2 million poorest Puerto Ricans at the mercy of Socialist enemy nations of the USA, probably China… That would end that part of Puerto Rican Culture we Puerto Ricans cherish worse than any other societal change would, even the often feared “Americanization”. And I rather speak English than speak Mandarin Chinese, though some nationalists here would be instantly willing to do the inverse of that .

[L_F_Miranda]

I'ts refreshing to see how we Puerto Ricans can get our act together when we feel we are put on the spot.

Nevertheless, we as a people are still in BIG TROUBLE! Denial or sugar coating our realities will not help. "UN DIALOGO NACIONAL", is our best bet.

No one here can deny that we are the poorest of the poor among Hispanics. Statistiscs don't lie, unless there is an anti-Puerto Rican conspiricy among statisticians. Although there are one or two of us who excell, the majority still lives in a world that is not too far from the ghetto. Even the small Rican middle class has a ghetto quality about it that is only noticed by outsiders, not within us. Nontheless ask anyone on the island and they will quickly point it out.

A small example of what I'm saying is J-Lo. Pretty, smart, imaginative, successful, entrepreneual, but there is also a ghetto quality about the chick that makes her a joke. She is the embodiment of the Hispanic hot tamale, which although a stereotype, is copied by young girls in our stateside communities.

Is it in our culture?

I remember when Iris Chacon was the rage back in the late 70's. In the South Bronx moms fought tooth and nail to enroll their daughters in Iris Chacon fan clubs instead of after school programs to help their daughters read.

The fan clubs would then become a hit in the Puerto Rican day parade. Does any body wonder why whites, who lived on fifth Ave, boarded up their buildings and businesses along the route? Many here would say it was racism, but maybe it was the sorry specticle that was parading on the Avenue.

Delgado said in a previous post, WE DON'T READ!

Different from the Jews, who ride on the crest of other Jews who are successful, we don't have much to show for in the U.S. Yes Suki, there is also the Puerto Rican policy institure, which has intellectuals, but who in our community knows about them, maybe just a handful.

Discussions like this go a long way in trying to figure out WHAT WENT WRONG AND HOW WE CAN FIX IT! denial, personal attacks or obsessions with Cuban Style anti-Communist fixations or 1960 Socialist revolutions get us no where.

[Yujike]

Here a discussion with decorum, facts, and a place to learn something and here comes the evil Jibaro/AR once again to inject invective and personal attacks on the posters and spread his vile and lack of compassion for his fellow citizen. You are sadly full of so much hate that you can't stand it when orderly, good discussions take place. Take yourt fascist attitudes somewhere else please, we don't want to hear from your evil ilk!!!

[L_F_Miranda]

Thank goodness El Jibaro is begining to drop his Communist, Fidel Castro, Miami Cuban brain wash and is letting out a DROP of rationality, but he still has a long way to go.

For example he said:

"Not only that, but four other things produce the Puerto Rican INDOLENCE CULTURE. First, Puerto Rico had for most of its 500 years only a strategic value to Spain and the US, and as such most of the time the local government was never focused on LOCAL, but on meeting the strategic value requirements of Madrid and Washington. This probably engendered an attitude of “let Madrid and let Washington take care of you, we know what is best…”"

He might be correct on this but:

1- Spain, as a colonial power knew that the forces of Annexation were growing on the island so, without consulting Puerto Ricans, quickly handed us over to the U.S. in 1898. "Nos botaron como un Pamper sucio"

2- Since 1989, Puerto Rican strategic value for Washington has disappeared. However the mess created in 1917, by granting the colony American citizenship, has become a XXI century stumble block that still lingers. Nonetheless EMPIRES ALWAYS DO AS THEY WANT.

Question? Why should the American Empire, in all its GLORY, get stuck with 4 million free loaders who only want Statehood to continute living off the dole?

And then El Jibaro continues to interpret history to fit his needs.

"A third fact is that since Puerto Rico was poorer than Haiti until 1940,"

WAIT A MINUTE! In 1940 Puerto Rico had been under American rule for 42 years! We were even American citizens! You mean to say that American rule wasn't good for us? That even Haitians lived better?

By now we should all know that it was not until the SOCIALIST inspired PPD took power in 1936 that Puerto Rico began to do something about poverty. When Puerto Ricans began to administer the colony things began change. Gringos were then busy with World War II, therefore the SOCIALIST reforms of Munoz were able to go through despite Statehooders protesting to Washington.

The problem became that the PPD was so succesful that it created a Statehood movement that today threatens to present full annexation to the gringos. This only proves that Puerto Ricans aren't stupid. Who in their right mind is going to kill the Goose that lays the golden eggs?

HOWEVER, The island is now USELESS to the Empire. Gringos know that they must set us loose, the question is HOW?

Bottom line, COLONIALS NEVER pick their fate , their fate is decided within the the interests of the Metropolis. If anyone here can figure out how we are in the best interest of the Metropolis NOW, not in 1965, then please let us know.

[Eddier1]

Yujike's post hit the nail on the head!

So, putting hyperboles of personalisms aside which the El Jibaro used against me,(while contradictorily stating that my post made sense), let me aver one thing the he said that shows how retrograde and lacking in historical memory and understanding the El Jib is. He wrote:

Puerto Rico itself needs a good jolt of privatization and the end of Socialist BIG GOVERNMENT

What a laugh that is for me surely, and for Yujike maybe, over and above
his demonstrated anger at the El Jib/AR creature. For the individual called
El_Jibaro does not realise that not long ago that jolt of privatization
took place under the PNP of Rossello and failed miserably,
and in the process gave an example of corruption so huge
that no other Party in Puerto Rico has even approached
'contundentamente' the criminality and sociopathic actions that the PNP displayed!

As for L.F.M. I don't agree with his acceptance that the Madrid/ Washington
nexus bent the will and minds of the Puertorriquenos to nothing else than
servile obedience. If that were so, there would have been no revolutionary
movements towards Independence during the tenure of either Madrid and
then Washington. And we know that many actions of the Puertorriquenos
took place that reached even the "hallowed halls" of the U.S. Congress.
I don't know how either L.F.M. and the El_Jib could have read the history
of the LUCHA for Puerto Rican Independence, a history briefly posted by
Suki lately, and still say and/or infer that the Puertorriquenos were mere
'lacayos' of Madrid and Washington. What both posters said doesn't wash!

[L_F_Miranda]

Eddier said:

"As for L.F.M. I don't agree with his acceptance that the Madrid/ Washington
nexus bent the will and minds of the Puertorriquenos to nothing else than
servile obedience. If that were so, there would have been no revolutionary
movements towards Independence during the tenure of either Madrid and
then Washington."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
For one reason or another all our attempts towards independence in the XIX and XX century were failures. Today these failures are good to establish a heroic mythology, which all nations MUST have, but that all the attempts were "Still Born" is unquestionable.

Does this mean that Puerto Ricans are complete failures? NO! Not all nations have bloody conflicts to cement their national identity.

Our lack of will in the XIX centuiry just shows that our Bourgeois class preferred to stay aligned to Spain. They preferred accomodation, either through direct annexation, as a province of Spain or via a semi-autonomous entity that was short lived. In contrast the Cubans had a good backing from their bourgeois class, therefore a final victory was assured, but later spoiled by the U.S. intervention.

Our sense of nationhood finally took hold during the 30's. Unlike the Phillipines where the threat of Statehood began to show its face in the late 20's, Puerto Ricans, except for the bourgeois Pitiyanki class, didn't want this alternative.

The Phillipines was eventually let go before the annexation movement took hold. Who in Washington wanted to absorb 20 million brown Asians who would swamp the U.S. Congress with Senators and Representatives? Despite that the Phillipinos adopted English as their language of union, They still use it in political rallies, Congress decided to feed them to the Asian sharks instead.

Like I said, Puerto Rico was different until the 70's when the statehood movement finally took off. After succesfully having squashed the independentistas in the 50's and 60's , Washington was faced with an annexationist movement that threatened to put too many Hispanics in Congress. Could they serve as a role model for the Hispanic explosion that the Whites feared was coming down the pike? Believe me, Gringos didn't want to know. The dismanteling of the bases was the first step in DISENGAGEMENT from the leeches of the Caribbean. LOL

Sad but true Eddier, Puerto Rico will be born an independent nation without the will of its people. Why? Most Puerto Ricans don't want it! Most are like El Jibaro and Another Rican who have a "SPECIALLY DESIGNED STATEHOOD in their heads. That is why Gringos will never grant "Annexation Puertorriquencis." In reality, the middle ground Free Assocaition model might be the Statehooders best bet, however I think it doesnt seem to fit within the U.S. constitutional system and, less so, after 9-11 and a future super-conservative Supreme Court.

Like I said in a previous post, Statehood is a LIBERAL concept, but strangely it's Conservative Boricuas who champion this idea. Is this a contradiction or what?