Communism and all the other isms.

[L_F_Miranda]

Most on this forum talk a lot of crap about isms, and don't have an inkling of why these isms are a success in some countries and failures in others.

There is no question about it, Communism as implanted in China has been an astounding success! Its taken a country, which in 1949 was a step below India, and made it a competitor of the United States, and all within 57 years!

In fact, many middle class chinese from the states are going back, a surprise and well kept secret for americans who think everyone wants to come to the U.S. and live in a ghetto.

In Cuba, Communism has been a semi failure. Semi because it still has the best health system in Latin America and it is number one in education. However, many will blame its other failures on the embargo or the Cuban exiles who wage a constant war on the island, but I think its that, and MORE !

There is something about the composition of the population, its obsession with dancing and music, its rascism. Racism hasn't been eliminated, whites still rule a country that is 54% black! Is it the attachment to Santería? Is it that it needs many generations to wipe out its stubborn lumpen-proletarian class? What is it? To blame the U.S. is a cop out and a very convenient one, although it has "some blame", not all!

In contrast, China did away with all its past and started a-new. The cost in human life and suffering was horrendous, but today we have a totally new society, which is a far cry from the 1950's picture that Another Rican and El Jibaro describe. Is it perfect? No way! But is the U.S perfect? Just take a look a New Orleans and Liberty City.

In China's case Communism has been a great system for development like no other, but like all systems, once they have reached their goal they are transformed.

Can all countries copy the Chinese model? NO!

India, while not resorting to the Chinese model is a disaster waiting to happen. Despite maintaining a "democracy" with no structural changes in its society, it still has a poverty rate not to be believed! MMMM is it its population who are still riddled with a caste system and a religion of inequality? Is it "baile baraja y botella?" In China all this was destroyed one, two, three.

In Latin America, what aspires to Revolutions are just hit or miss affairs.

In Venezuela massive poverty and crime exists side by side luxury, Miss universe contests, shopping malls, garbage and more of "baile, baraja y botella."

Despite that Hugo Chavez attempts to fix things, sometimes " a la cañona", he won't get very far. Is it the the U.S.? No way! Its the huge Miss Universe addicted middle class, who different from Cubans, have remained and tempered more radical solutions. Venezuela will just coast, it certainly will not be a Cuba.

Haiti? Now that's a lost cause if I saw one, that is, unless Eddier decides that it isn't and tries a guerrilla invasion. But even that, the Haitians have screwed up. They have de-forested the entire island, therefore an Eddier led expedition will have no where to hide.

[EddieR]

LFM wrote:
Haiti? Now that's a lost cause if I saw one, that is, unless Eddier decides that it isn't and tries a guerrilla invasion.

Well, Luis, if you weren't so mesmerised by "baile, baraja, y botella" you might have learned something from your study of the revolutions in Cuba, and elsewhere in Latin America, Asia, and Africa. And that lesson is that 'you can't export revolutions' -- the old Soviet Union learned the hard way in Afghanistan where it tried social imperialism.

All genuine revolutions must be 'home grown' and since I know virtually nothing about Haiti, I can't say whether or not it has a proletarian force innate to Haitian concrete conditions, which can be the material weapon of communist philosophy in that country.

As for Puerto Rico, it had such a force. Since you have made yourself an 'elemento' in the inter-factional similarities and differences of the force, don't you think it would be better for you to study the differences and similarities rather than to introduce names, lol, and a screenname at that, as potential leaders of revolutions?

I have had a lifetime of armed struggles, going back to the Spanish Civil War for which I hold dual citizenship with the U.S. and triple citizenship based on the decisions of the Puerto Rican Supreme Court which upheld Juan Mari Bras's right to hold a Puerto Rican citizenship, too.

Don't you understand that trying to trick an oldtimer with your glib asides is socially irresponsible of you ( who aren't young anymore either, eh, old timer) and the consequences will rebound on your own bowed head -- ' y porque no?, el porque lo mereces!!!

[AnotherRican]

The crap starts with you, Miranda.

1. You fail to see the disaster of feeding the population of N. Korea while their leader orders some of the most expensive wines from other countries and builds up their weapon arsenal.

2. You fail to see the censuring of folks on the internet in China. Have you heard of the Internet Police in China? If you do any word searches using such words as "freedom" or names of dissident groups, you'll have a knock on your door with guys carrying clubs ready to ship you to prison.

You also haven not seen the pheasant rebellions chronicled on video and showing the Chinese government beating up old ladies and men because they are demonstrating against the government.

You quickly forgot Tjiemenen Square where student demonstrations were ruthlessly put out and many imprisoned (to this day), tortured, and even killed.

You've forgotten that China tried to clamp down on HOng Kong and they had thousands and thousands going to the streets protesting their iron grip.

3. You've forgotten that in Venezuela you cannot trash Hugo in public. And he engages in constant intimidation. He beats up even ladies and had his thugs shoot into crowds demonstrating against his regimen.

4. YOu've forgotten that while you have unlimitted access to the internet and easily own a computer, the average Cuban cannot even dream of such and all internet access is watched ruthlessly. Folks eat soybean for protein. A friend of mine that visited there saw a man who caught a large fish walk to a corner to sell the fish and quickly, a car pulled up and some government police arrested him for selling the fish and hauled him away. I also have spoken to pastors who have been beaten up for simply saying the word "freedom" in church. They haul these guys away.

All of this is recent history. No ancient stuff as you try to insinuate.

You must be a Communist/Marxist sympathizer. That is why you praise these and cannot see the obvious... including that Ruben Berrios and Bras are fakes and chameleon traitors and vendepatrias to Cuba and Chavez. These guys are also atheists and that matters a lot because they don't give a damn about HIgher Law.

Originally Posted by L_F_Miranda

Most on this forum talk a lot of crap about isms, and don't have an inkling of why these isms are a success in some countries and failures in others.

There is no question about it, Communism as implanted in China has been an astounding success! Its taken a country, which in 1949 was a step below India, and made it a competitor of the United States, and all within 57 years!

In fact, many middle class chinese from the states are going back, a surprise and well kept secret for americans who think everyone wants to come to the U.S. and live in a ghetto.

In Cuba, Communism has been a semi failure. Semi because it still has the best health system in Latin America and it is number one in education. However, many will blame its other failures on the embargo or the Cuban exiles who wage a constant war on the island, but I think its that, and MORE !

There is something about the composition of the population, its obsession with dancing and music, its rascism. Racism hasn't been eliminated, whites still rule a country that is 54% black! Is it the attachment to Santería? Is it that it needs many generations to wipe out its stubborn lumpen-proletarian class? What is it? To blame the U.S. is a cop out and a very convenient one, although it has "some blame", not all!

In contrast, China did away with all its past and started a-new. The cost in human life and suffering was horrendous, but today we have a totally new society, which is a far cry from the 1950's picture that Another Rican and El Jibaro describe. Is it perfect? No way! But is the U.S perfect? Just take a look a New Orleans and Liberty City.

In China's case Communism has been a great system for development like no other, but like all systems, once they have reached their goal they are transformed.

Can all countries copy the Chinese model? NO!

India, while not resorting to the Chinese model is a disaster waiting to happen. Despite maintaining a "democracy" with no structural changes in its society, it still has a poverty rate not to be believed! MMMM is it its population who are still riddled with a caste system and a religion of inequality? Is it "baile baraja y botella?" In China all this was destroyed one, two, three.

In Latin America, what aspires to Revolutions are just hit or miss affairs.

In Venezuela massive poverty and crime exists side by side luxury, Miss universe contests, shopping malls, garbage and more of "baile, baraja y botella."

Despite that Hugo Chavez attempts to fix things, sometimes " a la cañona", he won't get very far. Is it the the U.S.? No way! Its the huge Miss Universe addicted middle class, who different from Cubans, have remained and tempered more radical solutions. Venezuela will just coast, it certainly will not be a Cuba.

Haiti? Now that's a lost cause if I saw one, that is, unless Eddier decides that it isn't and tries a guerrilla invasion. But even that, the Haitians have screwed up. They have de-forested the entire island, therefore an Eddier led expedition will have no where to hide.

[L_F_Miranda]

Eddier said:

"Well, Luis, if you weren't so mesmerised by "baile, baraja, y botella" you might have learned something from your study of the revolutions in Cuba, and elsewhere in Latin America, Asia, and Africa.

"Baile, Baraja y Botella" is my way of describing a population that is unmoved and easily won over by consumerism and all those other things that continue to keep American Blacks and Ricans in the Ghetto, sports, hip-hop and the dream of a Lincoln Navegator with a voluptuous Ho like vixen on the side. Its done deliberately, although the system tells us its "our choice."

Eddier said:

"And that lesson is that 'you can't export revolutions' -- the old Soviet Union learned the hard way in Afghanistan where it tried social imperialism."

All revolutions, in their initial euphoria of the spreading the "TRUTH" always try to export. The French in 1789, The Soviets, The Cubans etc. They finally come to realize that they better get their house in order because concentrating on "others" has almost never worked.

The U.S hasn't learned this fact either. In their obsession with exporting Democracy and the American way of life, they also run into failure, MMMMM well not so in Puerto Rico but most people on this planet don't function like Puerto Ricans anyway.

About Haiti, its a DISASTER! Ecologically generations of Haitians have destroyed the nation. They've cut down every tree they could find. In contrast the Dominican Republic by 1900 had laws protecting forests. Their major problem is that they don't want to be considered Black. They have a horrendous color problem that makes a Puerto Rican racist look like Martin Luther King.

As for Puerto Rico, we will just COAST until Washington decides to set us loose. It won't be beacsue we want to become independent, it'll be because the Gringo power structure doesn't need us anymore, Its sad. "nos botarán como un pamper sucio"

Eddier continued:

"I have had a lifetime of armed struggles, going back to the Spanish Civil War for which I hold dual citizenship with the U.S. and triple citizenship based on the decisions of the Puerto Rican Supreme Court which upheld Juan Mari Bras's right to hold a Puerto Rican citizenship, too."

OH MY GOD, you must be pushing 90 or more! Good for you. I could be your great grandson, LOL. Last July 18th the Spanish Civil War as 70 Years old!

Overall, I view the isms as simply systems of economic development. They are transitory once their goals are met. Do the leaders view it this way? NO WAY! Like Mercantilism in the past, Communism fostered strict government controls over economic development. When these controls begin to hamper the "TAKE OFF period" they are relaxed ,as shown by what is happening in China.

Do the Chinese still hold on to their strict controls of individial liberties. Yes, because systems die hard. In fact there is a battle raging between the new China and the old guard, however China has taken off and no one can stop it. Out moded, but initially sucessful Communist controls, will make way towards something new. To think that things stay the same is to not to understand human progress.

[L_F_Miranda]

Highly agitated Another Rican said:

1. You fail to see the disaster of feeding the population of N. Korea while their leader orders some of the most expensive wines from other countries and builds up their weapon arsenal.

NO, I just don't think all communist countries are cut within the same mold. North korea has been a disaster! Led by a guy in a Pompadour wig, this country has made a disaster of its economic development in order to create an arsenal of firecrackers that don't work well. But all is not lost. Recent developments have the South koreans making dual investments proyects in the hope of bringing in some changes.

Another Rican continued with his FOX NEWS Diatribes

2. You fail to see the censuring of folks on the internet in China. Have you heard of the Internet Police in China? If you do any word searches using such words as "freedom" or names of dissident groups, you'll have a knock on your door with guys carrying clubs ready to ship you to prison.

If you read the post I responded to Eddier it will let you know that I KNOW that China isn't the paradise on earth depicted by chinese propaganda. However when comparing the present China to the China of Mao, you can't deny that things aren't the same. Yes, the old systen will try to hold tight, but its a loosing battle. There is a power struggle going on and the forces of modernity will win. If you keep on listening to Bill O'Reilly you might still think we live in 1935.

I've had several chinese friends move back to China. They are not the poor class, but highly professional people. I asked one of then "aren't you concerned about liberties"? He laughed and said, "In America I have liberties but I'm a chink, having to live in a ghetto and having my kids made fun of at school. In China they will be free,they will be Chinese and in fact we will live better.

And the Fox News spokesman said:
3. You've forgotten that in Venezuela you cannot trash Hugo in public. And he engages in constant intimidation. He beats up even ladies and had his thugs shoot into crowds demonstrating against his regimen.

However I don't see an exodus of Venezuelans leaving, do you? They've done the right thing, STAY! They know that they are facing Chavez face to face not like the cowardly Cubans who fled to Miami.

Sad but true you must also face the fact that Chavez was VOTED IN BY A MAJORITY. If you are a true Gringo, then you must accept that he got in by a DEMOCRATIC VOTE whether you like him or not.

4. YOu've forgotten that while you have unlimitted access to the internet and easily own a computer, the average Cuban cannot even dream of such and all internet access is watched ruthlessly. Folks eat soybean for protein. A friend of mine that visited there saw a man who caught a large fish walk to a corner to sell the fish and quickly, a car pulled up and some government police arrested him for selling the fish and hauled him away. I also have spoken to pastors who have been beaten up for simply saying the word "freedom" in church. They haul these guys away.

No I haven't forgotten Cuba. Like I said in a previous post, I think that the problem with the Cuban revolutuion were the massive amounts of Lumpen-proletarians that Fidel had to deal with. They are a stubborn class of people. If you visit Havana they are all over, "chancleteando" with boom boxes in El Parque Central. The city is a mess of dilpilated housing with garbage and clothes hanging all over. No, its not because the government doesn't have money, its because its a class of people that will not change. Their attitude is " Yo no tengo que recoger basura, Que lo haga el gobietno" MMM sounds familiar?

You must be a Communist/Marxist sympathizer.

Oh how quaint! Almost Folkloric!

Common now, you are a big boy, Life isn't as simple as that.

[AnotherRican]

Originally Posted by L_F_Miranda

Highly agitated Another Rican said:

Another Rican continued with his FOX NEWS Diatribes

You insist on imposing Fox News on me. I don't even subsribe to Cable. I get all my news from about 10-15 News sources on the Web. Then I make a judgement on who has the most integrity in reporting. Unlike yourself, I don't just look at one source (Lefty).

If you read the post I responded to Eddier it will let you know that I KNOW that China isn't the paradise on earth depicted by chinese propaganda. However when comparing the present China to the China of Mao, you can't deny that things aren't the same. Yes, the old systen will try to hold tight, but its a loosing battle. There is a power struggle going on and the forces of modernity will win. If you keep on listening to Bill O'Reilly you might still think we live in 1935.

There you go again. I've probably seen The O'Reilly Factor about 2-3 times ever. Modern China may have relaxed their grip but you are naive to think that they don't have massive oppression (such as open travel policy, such as freedom of religion, such as having dissident voices with no persecution, such as plans for reclaiming Taiwan, such as clamping down in Hong Kong, such as vast censure of Web access, etc.

However I don't see an exodus of Venezuelans leaving, do you? They've done the right thing, STAY! They know that they are facing Chavez face to face not like the cowardly Cubans who fled to Miami.

Sad but true you must also face the fact that Chavez was VOTED IN BY A MAJORITY. If you are a true Gringo, then you must accept that he got in by a DEMOCRATIC VOTE whether you like him or not.

There are Venezuelans leaving who can afford moving to the States. The problem is the most Venezuelans cannot afford it. Hugo is trying to be dictator for life. That is betrayal of democracy and what awaits PR if the likes of Berrios or Bras would ever get elected. Hugo is a Fidel wannabe.

No I haven't forgotten Cuba. Like I said in a previous post, I think that the problem with the Cuban revolutuion were the massive amounts of Lumpen-proletarians that Fidel had to deal with. They are a stubborn class of people. If you visit Havana they are all over, "chancleteando" with boom boxes in El Parque Central. The city is a mess of dilpilated housing with garbage and clothes hanging all over. No, its not because the government doesn't have money, its because its a class of people that will not change. Their attitude is " Yo no tengo que recoger basura, Que lo haga el gobietno" MMM sounds familiar?

Baloney! The government has money and it is in Fidel's and Raul's Swiss Bank accounts. It is not the fault of the hostage peoples of Cuba. It is the fault of all the thugs in power with Fidel. You trash those who left. Why don't you give Cubans in Cuba a helping hand by moving there so you can see the results of Marxism? I'm always amazed at those who demonize folks who fled Communism. In my book there has to have taken some form of lobotomy to the brains of such individuals who do this demonizing. This is much akin to trashing the Israelis for defending themselves despite they handing over land for peace and encountering lies, betrayal, and international idiocy on the part of governments and individuals.

You must be a Communist/Marxist sympathizer.

Oh how quaint! Almost Folkloric!

No just the Truth. You sympathize with Marxists and you trash the exiles from Cuba and Israelis, and seem to have a racist attitude towards me for being "pro-gringo." YOu are an elitist, like Eddie in your legendary mind.

Common now, you are a big boy, Life isn't as simple as that.

Life may not but morality can be as clear as the sunlight. Apparently, you cannot see the light. [/quote]

[L_F_Miranda]

Rican, from what I gather You live in a SIMPLE bubble. The world is changing around you and you refuse to accept the fact, like Dorothy said in the Wizard of Oz, "Gee Toto, this is not Kansas anymore."

And Rican continued with his view of 1950 China

Modern China may have relaxed their grip but you are naive to think that they don't have massive oppression (such as open travel policy, such as freedom of religion, such as having dissident voices with no persecution, such as plans for reclaiming Taiwan, such as clamping down in Hong Kong, such as vast censure of Web access, etc.[/color][/size][/font]

I was just in Vietnam last February. What was I doing? Seeing for myself how the world is changing. I traveled from Hanoi to Saigon, a.k.a. Ho Chi Migh City, via Hue , Hoian, Danang and the Mekong Delta.

You might say to yourself, "YOU SEE YOU SEE, What person who is not a communist would visit Vietnam!" Why couldn't Miranda go To Disney world, Las Vegas or Branson Missouri, like all of us? LOL

Anyhow:

The most annoyiong thing I saw in Vietnam, Cambodia and Thailand (non-Communist) were the Hordes of CHINESE TOURISTS, clicking their cameras away, being as pushy as the Japanese and Koreans are, trying to get in front of you on line. LOL

No I ddn't go with a communist international club, I went with Gringos, Blacks and Jewish professionals who were interested in visiting another part of the world. In fact, most of the people on the tour were conservative, but not extremists like you, LOL

And Rican, with a crystal ball said:

There are Venezuelans leaving who can afford moving to the States. The problem is the most Venezuelans cannot afford it. Hugo is trying to be dictator for life. That is betrayal of democracy and what awaits PR if the likes of Berrios or Bras would ever get elected. Hugo is a Fidel wannabe.

Well only time will tell, LOL

And Rican continued with, CUBAN EXILE THINK 101

Baloney! The government has money and it is in Fidel's and Raul's Swiss Bank accounts. It is not the fault of the hostage peoples of Cuba. It is the fault of all the thugs in power with Fidel. You trash those who left. Why don't you give Cubans in Cuba a helping hand by moving there so you can see the results of Marxism? I'm always amazed at those who demonize folks who fled Communism. In my book there has to have taken some form of lobotomy to the brains of such individuals who do this demonizing. This is much akin to trashing the Israelis for defending themselves despite they handing over land for peace and encountering lies, betrayal, and international idiocy on the part of governments and individuals.

And Rican finally said:


No just the Truth. You sympathize with Marxists and you trash the exiles from Cuba and Israelis, and seem to have a racist attitude towards me for being "pro-gringo." YOu are an elitist, like Eddie in your legendary mind.

No I don't have a racist attitude towards you, that is all in your mind. In fact when push comes to shove, and if you were being persecuted by white racists, I bet most of the so called left wingers here would come to your rescue. That is why we are Puerto Ricans, to help each other.

Nontheless, you seem to be obsessed with Cuban exile and White supremist dialog. I bet if Eddier and me were being attacked by a racist gang of conservative religious thugs, you would just look the other way, saying, "It serves them right."