The problem with L_ F_ Miranda

[RPR]

Hmm------ what is the issue?
Miranda is too blunt?
Miranda does not sugar coat his remarks?
Miranda is not politically correct?
Has Miranda said something that is an absolute lie?


There is no "issue" just merely an observation. I called it shock posting because although most of his remarks are based on truth, they tend to be sensationalistic.


Miranda and I share some views. The most prominent issue we agree is the damage of “US ghetto hood culture” in the island.

[color="Blue"][b][size="3"][b]Stanley, if you would have gone pass your friendly confines of San Juan then you would have relaized that Puerto Rico already had it's own brand of "ghetto hood culture" prior to the reggaeton or rap. Por que tu cres se escribieron canciones como "Pedro Navaja".Aunque Ruben Blades es panameño el tema era muy popular en Puerto Rico y en todo latinoamerica. Ya habia una cultura de violencia y de "blinblineo" cuchillas,pistolas que no tenia ninguna influencia de los afroamericanos o de los nuyoricans.

The other issue we share is the delusion of Puerto Ricans and the africanization of our culture by Nuyoricans.

Que haiga delusion entre los puertorros no es muy soprendiente despues de mas de 500 y pico de años de ser colonia, masacres,gritos y mas recientemente persecusion politica ente nosostros mismo.Ademas no se porque te molestas tanto lo que tu llamas "africanisacion" de nuestra cultura. Tal vez no hay negros en la isla? O es preferible oir los beatles o solo rock?

The comparison to Don Imus is incorrect. Don Imus said something derogatory about black people and that is a no-no because he is not black. Perhaps MIranda said something derogatory about Puerto Rico, however he is Puerto Rican. We all know the word “ni----ger” is often acceptable when it is exclusively used by blacks on blacks and highly unacceptable when used by another ethnic group. If Miranda was Mexican or Dominican I could see the outrage.

Whether he truly feels this way or not....his remarks were intended to get a reaction. Btw Imus has said things in the past that will make these last comments playful. He is in the business to shock listeners and keep his audience listening to what his latest diatribe will be. I guess we Puerto Ricans suffer from high doses of ADD that Pipepr can't help to be sensationalistic in his posts.

This is what I would do: Emulate Suki! She presents a strong opposite point of view and does not try to use PC bulldookie.

Suki does present not just a strong point of view but more importantly, a convincing point of view.

[RPR]

Originally Posted by L_F_Miranda

The late Manuel Maldonado Denis, a very well respected independentista intellectual once said: "Los Puertorriqueños que viven allá fuera sufren de los delirios de la distancia," possibly meaning that they've concocted a world view that differs from those on the island.

When he said it back in the late 60's, when I was in college at the UPR, I didn't quite get it. However as I participate more and more on these forums I notice that there is a rift, two world's colliding, one of Puerto Ricans who are comfortable within their ethnic boundaries and the other of Puerto Ricans who have an idealized vision of what Puerto Ricans should or should not be, should say or should not say.

I fully understand the reasons for this dynamic. Puerto Ricans reared in the states are very sensitive to being put in the spot light, of having "los trapos puestos al sol." Its uncomfortable and leaves us vulnerable in a society where other ethnic groups are just looking for an excuse to put us down. Therefore the solution is, "we MUST keep critiques light and positive."

That might be why RPR stressed that "we are supposed to be humble."

Stateside Puerto Ricans might have to follow this path fearing others finding out our faults and then using them against us. Those raised and eduacated past universtity on the island, and firm in their ethnicity, have nothing to fear. In fact, if RPR takes a look at the PIP forum where Carlos Irrizarry or Lopez Aleman write occasionally , He might come to the conclusion that this forum is populated by self hating Puerto Ricans.

I think the problem is that, as RPR states himself, My writings tend to stress what is wrong about Puerto Rican society, I don't put in any positive traits.

Not true. The problem is that I'm up to my nose reading about our folkoric wonders, our food, of how fantastic we are, on how oppressed and mis-understood we are, how racism has affected our education and progress, how we, as a humble people will survive.

My dillema with this "colonial think" is that other groups, like Dominicans are getting ahead despite the fact they came after us. Something is not right with this picture. Why are we falling behind?

Nontheless stateside Ricans refuse to budge, refuse to attack the problem head on except to place the blame on theoretical factors, applying 19th century theories that do not apply any more. Instead of geting our act together as a people we just.......... push the Puerto Rican Day parade and feel proud of Jennifer Lopez when she sang "Jenny from the block", serving as a role model for our girls. With this role model we might as well idealize Anna Nichole Smith! LOL

Its about time we Puerto Ricans start discussing, "what the hell is wrong!" Have a "Dialoigo nacional." which only seems to happen among those for independence living in Puerto Rico. Those living in the U.S feel its not their place to be blunt, others might be watching and use it against us.

I for one don't have that problem. My identity, as I think Stanley's, is forged in stone. We feel sure of ourselves. Stateside Ricans might feel threatened with too much reality check.

That's why the ones who use terms like "Self-Hating Puerto Ricans" are mainly mainlanders. In Puerto Rico this term is used only for Statehoders like Doña Miriam.

RPR, I invite you and others to come into the dialog, try to drop the Cliché's, and contribute openly instead of writing a few lines that don't contribute much. Question the IDEAS I WRITE, not me as a person! GIVE YOUR VERSION, Cleanse your soul man, it about time!

I believe that I have never made a judgement call on you as a person. And yes, I usually write one or two lines. Years of being on internet forums have taken my passion for dialogue away. I've become more of an observer. Why? I just feel a great disconnect from reality on forums like these. I think you pointed out how on the internet, we can have "conversations" from people from all walks of life and people are logging on from just about any location. You pointed out how this brings different ideas to collide on forums....What about like minds? I've seen this on other forums where like minds tend to gather making a "virtual ghetto" of ideas. Personally, it gave me a false impression that my views weren't as unique until I started sharing my views in the real world. Such as Puerto Rican independence. What I find mind boggling is that most of the people who sympathasized with Puerto Rican independence were white Americans! When speaking with Puerto Ricans out in the real world they either say " que se quede asi" unless they are reventao statehooders. I guessed independence supporters are a vocal minority like the Associated Press usually mentions in their articles or it could be colonial thinking on my part again just like with my take on being humble.

One thing I do know is that independence will NEVER be won by default. Sitting idle thinking the world's greatest power is going to magically get rid of what seems to be a financial burden is rather naive. Sure, its a different world today that in the 50's or 60's were the island held a geopolitical miltary importance. That was an added benefit. Bottom line is that big business makes a pludering on the island. Who cares if American taxpayers are spending billions keeping the island afloat through social programs! Everyone is busy watching American Idol.There is no incentive for a change in PR for big business so the status quo will continue to stand.

And what's the deal with this "stateside ricans" jibberish? Pipe, you have always come across as someone who has spend more time here in the states than on the island. I'm not fool by your "how Iowans would say" shtick lol. You want to discuss why are we so far behind? We are a colonized people. Like you say...DUH! We have no control over our borders or have final say about anything that occurs on the island. As much as you downgrade Nuyoricans, one thing is for sure and that they for the most part don't take abuse frrom any authority. Thats not too say that they are not subjected to abuse. I dare say that they have been a vital part of the independence struggle in this modern day. It's on the island where the tide turned a long, long time ago. Just about everyone on the island buys into the hype of land of opportunity and all men are created equal. What a farce....It takes to live this reality in the flesh to understand it. Just asked Central Florida Ricans lol. They are learning quickly how unwelcomed they are along with Cubans, Mexicans and all illegal immigrants. Who cares if we have died in their wars! I guess they are learning the heart's filthy lessoned...oops sorry thats a cliche.

[RPR]

Originally Posted by Yujike

Don RPR. este problema es uno de raza y no de politica. Me atrevo a apostar peso a morisqueta que Miranda y Stanley son blanquitos de PR y su grupusculo es el que ha dominado y domina todos los aspectos de la vida en PR y otros grupos descendientes de los blancos espanoles, los cuales dominan TODOS los paises de habla hispana en el continente. Leete La casa en la laguna de Rosario Ferre donde se exponen las practicas de este grupo blanco dominante en PR, como mantenian un libro de "pureza racial" donde los hijos debian casarse con blancos descendientes de espanoles y nunca mezclarse con negros, indios o judios y a envolverse en empresas comerciales con los de su mismo grupo. Estos dominan el PPD, el PNP y el PIP, en un tiempo los populares se referian a este grupo como el Grupo de los 600. Este Stanley me ha atacado personalmente muchas veces diciendo que debo ser neuyorican aunque incontables veces le he dicho que nunca he vivido en Nueva York. En otros posteos el ha defendido a Colon como un gran personaje de la historia y no como el genocida que fue y se ha molestado porque he atacado a los espanoles con su programa de explotacion y genocidio en las Americas. A estos blanquitos les molesta la "africanizacion" ( un tema favorito de Stanley) de PR aunque esta es la mayoria etnica que compone la isla. Atacan a los "mongrels" neuyoricans como los que han contaminado nuestra cultura porque como blanquitos les desagrada esta idea y la rechazan constantemente (uno de los temas de Miranda es la "cafreria") No se si tu eres una persona de color o del mismo grupo de ellos, pero no pases desapercibido este hecho de este grupo dominante en PR y que estos dos energumenos se sienten parte de esa elite, la defienden y le echan la culpa de todos los problemas que afectan la isla en los demas grupos, los neuyorican y los cafres ( que originalmente era un grupo proveniente de Africa!!).

Buena observacion Yuike! Te puedo decir que este "stanley" a mi no me convence. Es como un archie bunker puertorriqueño.Y que se puede decir de miranda aka pipepr. Es ahora que critica a los nuyoricans pero si no me equivoco es de conneticut y se ha criado casi toda su vida aqui. Para un puertorriqueño en la isla ya no es de alla. Tal vez eso sera la razon que miranda/pipepr intenta de verse como un personaje que llego recientamente y que no ha sido "contaminado" con los pensamientos de los nuyoricans.No sabia que los cafres era un grupo proveniente de Africa....por razon que todo es cafre en la isla...si vinimos de ellos lol!

[L_F_Miranda]

RPR, From What I gather I guess you know me from other forums. In fact you might have several internet handles yourself. I for one am not really here to let everyone know where you live, narrate your life history or find out how many times you have sex. That is one aspect of small town culture I've never shared. The reasons you, like Eddier and Suki, keep taking out personal aspects of my life beats me, what is the purpose? To put me in my place? "Para que no se la eche mucho, sabemos de donde sale........LOL Very childish behavior, but what else can I say.

The only thing I ask is that people just respond to the ideas I write, is that too much to ask? Suki as moderator you should ENFORCE THIS TO A T!

Anyhow RPR, your response has been a whiff of fresh air, adding a new perspective to dialog here. I know that forums like this can easily degenerate into "cafreías personales", like that of Yukije, but hey, that's the nature of the beast.

Suki as moderator should also watch out for people who degenerate the conversation, because if Another Rican, who was a man, was kicked out like a dirty pamper for transgressions, others, even women, should also be put on watch. LOL

Yes, I use CAFRE as a very loose word. It entered the Puerto Rican dialect sometime in the 60's basically meaning, vulgar, de classé, coarse manners, rude, not on par with a middle class mainstream. Therefore many things would fall under this category, meaning that the word has many contexes.

Yes, I know that it originally came from the the description of an African tribe of sorts, but the word has evolved in Puerto Rico to encompass a wider meaning and a wider audience.

No, its not just used for Blacks, although the initial intent might have been. For a example, it's common in Puerto Rico to say, "Anna Nichole Smith es una CAFRETONA", and obviously she's not Black!

When Bill Clinton got his very public BJ in the White House you would hear conservative people say, "Que Cafrería, hasta done hemos llegao."

When Yukije gets all wound up and starts with sheenanigans, in Puerto Rico Stanley and I might say, "Que Cafre." In this case maybe meaning a very uneducated and angry style and out of the mainstream, certainly not meaning, Black.

When Immus said that awful thing about the Rutgers basketball team I heard friends mention , "Mira con que cafrerías se puso ese gringo, se merce todo lo que le pasó."

These are the cultural Nuances that a great majority of Puerto Ricans know, I just placed them here as a point of clarification.

[Stanley]

RPR:

There is no "issue" just merely an observation. I called it shock posting because although most of his remarks are based on truth, they tend to be sensationalistic.

Hombre, quizás hay algo de hipérbole, tienes razón. Sin embargo, no puedes negar lo que se menciona acerca de la enfermedad que está consumiendo a los puertorriqueños

Stanley, if you would have gone pass your friendly confines of San Juan then you would have relaized that Puerto Rico already had it's own brand of "ghetto hood culture" prior to the reggaeton or rap.

Antes, que nada, nací en San Germán----y luego---mas tarde viví en el area metropolitana. Recuerdo haber observado ese comportamiento que mencionas en mi niñez y años de adolecencia.

Os digo que todas la mujeres de mi familia eran maestras de álgebra en la escuela pública y por esa razón estudié en la escuela pública. Claro, no niego que estuve bajo el manto de protección de mis tías o mi madre quienes eran parte de la facultad. Sin embargo, durante este tiempo compartí con los cafres. La ralea no es nada nuevo, sin embargo ha ido en aumento. Mi madre tenía que bregar con estudiantes que venían de hogares desastrosos en donde tan solo reinaba la cafrería. Sin querer a veces decía: “No entiendo porqué estas familias traen niños al mundo”.

Por que tu cres se escribieron canciones como "Pedro Navaja". Aunque Ruben Blades es panameño el tema era muy popular en Puerto Rico y en todo latinoamerica. Ya habia una cultura de violencia y de "blinblineo" cuchillas,pistolas que no tenia ninguna influencia de los afroamericanos o de los nuyoricans.

Estos me sacaron cuchillas mas de una vez. También usaban muchas prendas y brazaletes. Sin embargo, habían varias escuelas públicas en donde se enseñaba y no todo el mundo era cafretón. Hoy en día la cosa es diferente. Hoy en día no hubiera podido asistir a la escuela pública. Las cosas han empeorado.

Ademas no se porque te molestas tanto lo que tu llamas "africanisacion" de nuestra cultura. Tal vez no hay negros en la isla? O es preferible oir los beatles o solo rock?

La africanización es mas que eso de la raza. Hablo de la manera de ver las cosas y de ciertos comportamientos ajenos a la cultura latinoamericana. En antaño el negro puertorriqueño no tenía ese complejo que tiene el negro americano. Los nuyoricans han copiado al negro americano y han aprendido a tener complejo. Todo lo que obserban lo hacen a traves del prisma racial.


Al igual que el negro americano estos nuyoricans han desarrollado una cultura afrocéntrica. Esto es ajeno a la cultura hispana. Como le he dicho a Yuyike------------hablamos español, no hablamos swagili.

La música es lo de menos. Cuando era joven teniamos roqueros y salseros (cocolos). Hoy dia hay roqueros y regatoneros. Sin duda alguna la música dominante es la del regatón. El rock en español sigue vivo en una minoría de la juventud puertorriqueña, pero no es como antes. Pero lo importante no es la música, lo importante es que el pueblo se está africanizanbdo y se ha distanciado del resto de latinoamérica.


La última vez que fuí a ver a Serrat en Bellas Artes no había un solo negro en la audiencia. Antes las cosas no eran así. Recuerdo que cuando Serrat venía a tocar al teatro de la UPR la audiencia era mas variada. Puerto Rico se sigue dividiendo y esto es muy triste.

[L_F_Miranda]

RPR said:

What I find mind boggling is that most of the people who sympathasized with Puerto Rican independence were white Americans!

I've had a different experience. Many of my Liberal white friends don't understand why Puerto Ricans want anything other than the status we have. Their first response is, "What more do you want, you don't have to pay Federal Income taxes!

About describing our relationship as a Colonial one, they are dumb-founded. They can't concieve that the U.S. has colonies! After all they point out, "you can be independent when ever you want, you just have to vote for it." LOL, A very Gringo shtick, like if everything is solved by votes only. That's the same dumb ass mind frame that got Americans in trouble in Iraq in the first place.

I've found that a great majority of Gringos, and "estadistas" have internalized "American exceptionalism." meaning that, the U.S. is God's gift to the world. They point out how Hispanic immigrants fight tooth and nail to be American citizens, therefore they don't understand what is wrong with Puerto Rican independentistas?

About our status, I believe there is no will to solve it, from either the U.S or the Puerto Ricans. For that reason, it will go on and on ad nauseum.

Although I think that if Congress is confronted with a serious demand for Statehood from 4 million American citizens, surprises might be in store.

During these post 9-11 times, when a xenophobic American nationalism has taken hold, a petition for Statehood might be turned down. However as Liberals make a come back and the pendulum swings towards a more tolerant society, in which multiculturalism is again in vogue, the independentistas better get ready to skip and run. Liberalism might be the worst enemy of our independence.

It's ironic that those who might move us toward independence are not the liberals who tolerate minorites and immigration, but the opposite, the Tom Delays, the Imus's, the Pat Buchanan's, The Ann Coulter's, the Phyllis Shaflies', the one's who hate Hispanics and Blacks, the most despicable elements of American society.

And what's the deal with this "stateside ricans" jibberish? Pipe, you have always come across as someone who has spend more time here in the states than on the island.

Yes that might be true, but as of five years ago I spend half of my year on the island, so you see, its more complicated that what it seems.

As much as you downgrade Nuyoricans, one thing is for sure and that they for the most part don't take abuse frrom any authority. Thats not too say that they are not subjected to abuse. I dare say that they have been a vital part of the independence struggle in this modern day.

The Nuyoricans that Stanley and I mention are the ones that we were confronted with in High school. They were seen as elements of de-nationalization at a time when Puerto Ricans had to practically fight tooth and nail to survive as a people. They were outsiders and, at that time, wanted to remain so.

The ones I seem to mention the most are the angry ones, the ones with a chip on their shoulder, who view the world in terms of what I call, an Afro-centric colonization. Its the one's who were trying to get some sort of acceptance for Spanglish, its the ones who see racists in every bowl of soup.

Can you imagine, we Puerto Ricans are basically "language paranoids." We have always thought of "others" coming in and changing our language. Along come the Nuyoricans with their version of Spanglish and as expected, sh*t hit the fan.

As of lately many of these nuyoricans are being re-born as statehooders. It's been a gradual and slow process but they see themselves more and more as being part of the American culture of marginalization and thus are beginning to sense that independence for the island is the last thing they want. Why?, they fear it will shut them out!

That might be why they are totally absent from Spanish speaking forums like the PIP. They are alien and are meant to feel so by other independentistas.

In the long run the Nuyoricans and the the Blacks will join forces within the Democratic party because Hispanics are becoming too complicated for them. Other Hispanics, specially the new immigrants, are becoming very anti-Black + conservative and joining the ranks of the Republican Party. In addition these new Hispanics are seen as not sharing their world view on race.

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by RPR

Just about everyone on the island buys into the hype of land of opportunity and all men are created equal. What a farce....It takes to live this reality in the flesh to understand it. Just asked Central Florida Ricans lol. They are learning quickly how unwelcomed they are along with Cubans, Mexicans and all illegal immigrants. Who cares if we have died in their wars! I guess they are learning the heart's filthy lessoned...oops sorry thats a cliche.

I wanted to offer my $200.00 on this one.

Imagine yourself growing up in Aibonito or Ciales. You love to go to town where everybody knows you and your family for several generations. You go to the plaza and you feel at home.

Then one day you wake up, go to town and find out that 90% of the people are Koreans and they don't speak Spanish. Furthermore, they don't understand what you say and refuse to learn Spanish. Pretty soon you end up disliking these Koreans.

Have you been to Miami lately? No one in Miami speaks English! Miami has become a Latin city. I would feel funny if I was a full blooded gringo. It is very likely I would think something nasty about the people that have invaded my city.

Sometimes we need to see the view from the other side.