Elitism?

[Stanley]

Here is the PIP site:

Partido Independentista Puertorriqueño - A Bravenet.com Forum


It is more active than this one, however, lately there has been a deterioration in the interchanges and they have used some personal insults. Nevertheless, some of the insulting remarks were never as graphic as what we saw in this forum.

Regarding nostalgia:

I will post later!


Go over the PIP and post. It will be fun, some of those guys are very smart and you will likely enjoy the challenge. No need to register--just make up a name and post!



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[Stanley]

The africanization of PR marches on. Now the people that tell PR history to others present a completely afrocentric view of history.

In this article;

Black history in Puerto Rico: Information from Answers.com


The writer states we have a rich black culture. I guess we are not hispanics anymore; we are not part of Latin America.

It is scary, this sounds a lot like the American Afrocentric movement.

The writer also states that the main religion of Puertoricans is "espiritismo"! I have head about it, but never saw it. Maybe I grew up in Mars, instead of PR.

[L_F_Miranda]

One of the things about the web is that every one has their personal take interpreting history. You have the gamut, from the educated to the folklorics, and sad but true, to the really ignorant slobs.

Interpreting Puerto Rican History is not immune from every crack pot that comes down the Pike. The Nuyorican take on our history is just one example, and it won't be the last.

About our African heritage, I believe its been neglected and it was about time we brought it out into the open, however the Afro-Centric garbage invented by those Dashiki and Nefertiti + turban wearing Gringos is nothing but a bad joke. Its sad to notice how their version of history has also been adopted by a small and vociferous section of State side Ricans thus stressing my view of a double colonization of the Rican mind.

About "Espirirtismo", ironically its not a black movement, its actually White! It developed in Europe in the 19th century and spread to the U.S., and from there to the Spanish colonies, or vice-versa.

On the island it always was a very middle class and elitist movement of intellectuals and people of "good families," but it quickly moved on to the masses. It's still practiced by a dwindling number of Puerto Ricans, mostly of an older generation.

Now-a-days "Espiritismo" has been taken over by Santeria, which is in reality African based.

Before 1960 Santeria was almost non-existent on the island. It was brought in by the white or "looks white" Cuban exiles, who were "blanquitos" by day but quickly turned "Black" by night during the initiation rites of this African religion.

Today Santeria out shines "Espiritismo," 10 to 1, and ironically, it's the most racist of Hispanics, The Cubans , who practice it the most.

[L_F_Miranda]

Stanley, recomending the PIP forum said:

"Go over the PIP and post. It will be fun, some of those guys are very smart and you will likely enjoy the challenge."

I once was a participant, "de afuerita", of the Puerto Rico Culture and Society forum. It was a roller coaster ride of competing ideolgies, most from very smart guys, and a few smart foul mouthed ones too.

The king of that forum was Ramon Lopez Aleman, a very sharp and smart individual who was finishing off his Phd in physics at the time.

Others were Carlos Irrizarry and POV, with right winger rabble rouser Peter Miller giving the forum the ulimate ride in right wing politics. LOL The Statehooders I mentioned, POV or Pete Miller, should never be confused with Faraon or Another Rican.

"De la noche a la Mañana", they all disappeared!

P.R. culture and Society hit bottom and hasn't recovered since.

I found Carlos Lopez on the PIP forum, I guess the others are around too.

I was also a member of the AOL Puerto Rico forum until the Ding-Bat estadistas and Cubans took over and pushed off Eddier and the rest of us out. LOL

There were even psychos on this forum, some whom I swear were writing from inside an insane assylum without their medication. LOL

Thanks for the tip, any more?

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by L_F_Miranda

[b]One of the things about the web is that every one has their personal take interpreting history. You have the gamut, from the educated to the folklorics, and sad but true, to the really ignorant slobs.

I was in Massachusetts last summer and among other things visited the Boston Public Library. To my surprise there was a Puerto Rico exhibit in the top floor, mostly represented with the artwork of PR kids in elementary school. Universally one could see the map of Puerto Rico and the only city that was depicted was Loiza-Aldea. The maps were surrounded by African symbols and poor Spanish syntax. Obviously their parents or Afro-centric teachers coached these elementary school kids.

Regarding “Espiritismo”: It is amusing how the author comes to the conclusion that this may be the main religion. Obviously he grew up among espiritistas and assumes this to be the norm for the rest. In fact they assume that whatever behavior they see in the Bronx is probably more exaggerated in the island. I had conversations with Nuyoricans in San Juan and most don’t believe I am Puerto Rican--------what a joke!

Years ago a prominent psychiatrist told me that most “espiritistas” in PR were squizophrenic. Hallucination is very prominent in schizophrenia and this psychosis tends to occur in intelligent people who know how to BS.

Regarding the PIP forum. I recognize many of those folks. They are there and I enjoy what they write. There are a couple of commys ala Eddie R and some severe socialists like Suki. However, there are a few that are simply independentistas with no musarañas in the head. The PNP are the type that kiss the ass of gringos, but some make good arguments. I encourage you to post there. They may enjoy your sarcastic point of view. As in this forum they have many independentistas that live an affluent lifestyle in the USA.

[Suki]

So many people think they know who they are writing about on the internet. And they don't.

Stanley, I think you feel comfortable believing that those who are independentistas are affluent burgueses without any real dedication at all. It makes you feel comfortable about your choices in life. It might be far from the truth but it makes you feel comfortable. What is the truth? The truth is that there are a lot of independentistas who come from working class backgrounds and who believe in independence for all the right reasons. There are people who reject money if it means compromising their principles in life. There are people who have a formal education and don't use it for the purpose of personal ambition and personal gain and for personal power. There are people who have another set of values. One that many will never understand in any way, because their heads and their choices have nothing in common with the ones who have a different reality and a different level of consciousness. THere are those with some light in the mind from the very beginning and others who allow themselves to be sucked in to the individualism is the endall of existence lifestyle and that is all they will be about until they die. That is just the way it is.

I don't expect people who have never made those choices or seen or lived with others who have made those choices to understand those who have lived a life of principles over personal gain. Don't assume to know those you read on the internet. You don't know them. You just don't. People are only what they write on this medium. And all I know is that I don't live with contradictions. I don't marry for money. I don't study for money. I don't work with the thought of personal gain. I don't raise kids with the hope of personal gain out of it. I don't care what others may believe that is false about many things in life. It is their choice to see what they want to see. And it is their problem.

Puerto Rico does have African culture. It is not the only culture that is part of Puerto Rico, but it is an integral part of our ethnic history. No doubt about that. What does that have to do with the African American experience? Chano Pozo the Cuban composer/singer and Dizzie Gillespie the great Jazz musician and composer said they spoke different languages, had different cultural backgrounds, but both had some African commonalities. Maybe the revilement, the discrimination and the experiences of being low on the social totem pole in both societies created more of a bond than anyone wants to acknowledge.

Stanley you are who you are. And it is foolish to try to understand why some Puerto Ricans in the USA might identify with African Americans---they are living in a society obsessed with racism and racial categorizations and class distinctions. One of the greatest fallacies is to believe the sheer lie that the United States is a nation without class markers or socioeconomic priveleges being assigned. The notion that anyone can become middle class or upper middle class or bourgeois, or ruling class within one generation is very false in every sense.

I think what bothers many upper middle class people in general is being faced with their lack of social consciousness. What is affluent lifestyle? Just how many possessions will you take to the grave with you when you die? What values are you going to leave behind for others? Are you going to teach them to not give a damn about the island of Puerto Rico's colonial problematic situation? To not give a damn about all the working class stiffs that go out there in the trenches and trying to survive the dog eat dog reality of living as a working person without any special privileges in life? To only be a selfish boor who spouts the accepted rhetoric and doesn't ever sacrifice one damn thing for anyone except themselves and their immediate family's interests. To be small in thinking socially and never do anything for the group. The group survives and evolves. The individual doesn't leave any lasting legacy if it is not group based. That is something many won't and can't understand. And they die not doing much except consume and horde and be a burden to those who have to sweat and struggle for survival in a world that is cold and selfish.

If I thought like you did about many things Stanley I would have to have had a totally different life than the one I have led. And I am glad I did not lead such a life. I am glad I led the one I did. Even with all the pain and disappointments, all of it leads to bringing out who one is on the social consciousness level. And it is good.

It is easy to dismiss what many can't understand because if they understood it--it would demand they change so many things in their lives. And they are prisoners to those things. The things and the fake values own them. And the sad part is they don't even know it.

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by Suki

So many people think they know who they are writing about on the internet. And they don't.

I agree, but Suki----------you are writing about me! There is a good chance you are wrong about your diagnosis.

Stanley you are who you are. And it is foolish to try to understand why some Puerto Ricans in the USA might identify with African Americans---they are living in a society obsessed with racism and racial categorizations and class distinctions.

Suki when these folks acquire the Afro-American culture they lose the latin identity (or great part of it) and become gringos. Lets not forget that a gringo can be black, white, Asian. It is no big deal if they want to be assimilated into Afro-American "Hood" culture. What is really wacky is the concept that the Afro-American "hood" philosophy somehow applies to PR or other latin nations.

It is not so much the color of the skin Suki. I had a very good Cuban friend who had a very African phenotype, however, his world view and culture was similar to mine. That culture is something I cannot share with a gringo regardless of race.

The main problem with those that say PR is an African country is that they are applying gringo methodology to make that determination. They also operate from a point of view that is either ignorant or does not apply to Latin America. In addition, they dare to assume that those born and raised in PR think like them.

The notion that anyone can become middle class or upper middle class or bourgeois, or ruling class within one generation is very false in every sense.

Miranda discussed this issue in one of his posts. It probably takes several generations, perhaps as many as 7-8 for a group to move from one social strata to the next one. It is not the money---------look at Anna Nicole Smith and her son. The kid was as redneck as she was despite all the wealth.