Elitism?

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by Suki

Stanley, I think you feel comfortable believing that those who are independentistas are affluent burgueses without any real dedication at all.

A couple more things:


I don't see you as an elitist, but at times you certainly try. As an island born PR you don't have traits of Nuyorican behavior and I also believe you are sincere regarding your belief system. I don't think you have a bad bone in your body.

[L_F_Miranda]

Stanley said:

Years ago a prominent psychiatrist told me that most “espiritistas” in PR were squizophrenic. Hallucination is very prominent in schizophrenia and this psychosis tends to occur in intelligent people who know how to BS.

Stan, Puerto Ricans ARE political squizophrenics in one way or the other! Where on this planet can you get away with believing you are Puerto Rican + Gringo + Afro-centric Nuyorican all at the same time? In fact I assume that the majority of our population suffers from this malady. Why? If we add the PNP + PPD together they form a majority.

Did I forget anyone? MMMMMMM how about those who think that we still live in the 19th century, when Marx wrote Das Capital? How about those who still live in heart and soul in 1965, when Communism was in vogue?

About espiritismo and squizophrenia going hand in hand, I've always had that thought. In fact It might be our practical way of disguising mental illness. Why? Its accepted by close family members and the person who hears the voices is not ostracized.

In fact the ones who hear the voices are not sent away to insane assylums but given a "Centro Espirtista " to practice their trade. MMMMMMM can listening to voices and camoufaging them as "desarollando facultades" make us very shrewd and more practical than gringos? LOL

[L_F_Miranda]

Suki wrote
Stanley, I think you feel comfortable believing that those who are independentistas are affluent burgueses without any real dedication at all.


Let me put in my 2¢.

I think the perception of independentistas as "Burgueses 19th century style" comes from the fact that they, on the average, read more, talk correctly, dance, but are not obsessed by it, and when they drink prefer drinks other than Budwieser. LOL

One can't deny that many independentistas are way and beyond the rabble. In fact they "act White" within the Nuyorican sense. That is precisely why its hard for them get votes in an election, they are not part of the masses.

To prove my point, Have you read CLARIDAD lately? Its reading level and content is surely not El Vocero's. Despite that I've pointed that out to many of my independentista friends, their response is DUHHHHHHHHHH you're out of touch.

Suki , by the way you talk it gives many of us the impression that you live in a shack lit by "quinque's" with no running water because its too bourgeois. Many of us would think you only incidently use money to go to the general store to buy cattle feed and maybe gasoline to power your 1965 rusting Volkswagon station wagon.

I also bet you save more than you spend, which makes you very un-Puerto Rican, in fact, very, very un-Nuyorican and very elitist.

Suki, you also want us to believe you're special when you say, "I don't live with contradictions."

Common Suki, we all live with contradictions one way or the other, that is unless you think yourself perfect. Being Puerto Rican is a contradiction all in itself. Why?

Isn't it strange that we accept living as colonials and rationlize our existence with "having the best of both worlds."

Don't you think that it hurts knowing that the majority of Puerto Ricans don't give a damn other than going to Wal-Mart to see what they can buy?

Talk to them about opression while they browse through the latest junk imported from China. Just trying to explain opression to them is very elitist in itself.

But there may be a light at the end of the tunnel. Despite our colonial situation there is a growing awareness of the damage we've done to the environment.

Different from Domimicans, who have made their country into a tourist mecca of white gringos and Dominican servents, Puerto Ricans have never made tourism our first industry, despite being an estadista goal. In fact its our third or fourth industry, it always has been. It tells a lot about us.

Finally, Believe it or not, there is also a growing awareness and an appreciation for books! A recent vist to Borders in Plaza I came across thousands of people either browsing, buying or attending book presentations that were once only for the small wine drinking independentista elite.

I also saw people openly playing chess, with others gathering around them to see the moves. All these changes serve as examples to our youth despite that those in "Los Caserios" see all this as proof of trying to be white, as seen from a nuyorican perspective.

[Stanley]

MIRANDA:


You may not be an "espiritista", but you have a gift to see and state the obvious. It may seem simple, but sometimes the obvious is easily missed by the most astute among us.

I have said more than once that I freely admit this demonic Puerto Rican ambivalence. I have no problems recognizing how the cycle of living under Spanish and American domination has caused trauma. At an early age I recognized the impurity of our culture.

It all started when I would listen to my friends from the center of the island or when I would hear my parents talk about life in their hometown of San Germán in the 1930s and 40s.

Since I grew up all over the metro San Juan area I would actually envy the so-called “identidad de pueblo” they had. In particular, my mother grew up at a time when the basketball players that play for the town were actual residents and natives of the town. She could walk to the plaza and knew everybody, including the town doc (who delievered all kids in town including myself), the mayor, the store owner, the poor, the rich, ect. I could tell I had missed something with my bicultural upbringing in San Juan.

Then I met the South Americans and noted how they could not speak English. However, I did not feel superior-------- instead I admired their manner of speech regardless of educational level. They only spoke in Spanish and that was a major contrast to my already nuyoricanized way of speaking Spanish (even though I had never lived in the USA). I remember how I suddenly became conscious of the language. This was in sharp contrast with my desire to pay British rock and roll music that was the rage among my peers of the era.



As for Suki:

I have the feeling she is the real deal. She has been very consistent about her politics and how she sees herself. She clearly has the “independentista” flair, but like EddieR she is more concern with socialism than independence for PR. There is one like that in the PIP board-------his nickname is Leo. He is as ambivalent as any of us with his glorification of Fidel, Hugo, and Jesus in the same phrase. Never saw a born again Christian that was a rabid commy-------He also lives in the USA.

I am always suspect of hardcore independentistas that live in the USA. But, then again I have concluded that I am in favor of independence and I also live in the USA. This PR mental illness is something else! At least we recognize we are ill. How about those that are a 100 times worse and have no clue they are schizophrenic?

So this is what I do. I have become a little bit like the socialists that see themselves as citizens of the world. In fact in his writings Marx thought that national boundaries were not a good thing. I will never see myself as American, but it is not a big deal because where I live you hardly ever see a pure American. In this part of the country mostly everybody is foreign. There is a huge Jewish, Asian, Indian, Eastern European, and Salvadorian population. Very few Puerto Ricans and waspy anglos.

Interestingly just about every PR person in my neck of the woods is highly educated---------go figure.

And now the END:

I wrote the above incoherent paragraphs to demonstrate how damaged we are by the colony. But, maybe I made more sense than Suki. She does not recognize her illness yet.

CIAO!

[L_F_Miranda]

EA Rayos, con esta Suki estará calentando los motores para caernos encima como a pillo de pelicula. LOL

No, Stanley no somos los peores, complejo de inferioridad si tenemos.

Nunca se me olvida cuando estaba estudiando en españa y un señor, con menos educación, me dijo, "Oiga le voy a enseñar a PRENUNCIAR."

Un puertorriqueño normal y corriente hubiera dicho, "hay perdón señor yo siempre he creído que se decia "PRONUNCIAR." pero usted, como Castellano al fin tendrá la razón".

Yo le dije: "Se va pal carajo con su prenunciar, ES PRONUNCIAR, y se lo dice un puertorriqueño para que aprenda." LOL

Nuestra ambivalencia es tal que vivimos con la creencia que otros siempre son superiores. Hasta una Gringa del calibre de Ana Nichole Smith la consideramos superior. Preguntale a Faraon. LOL

Una cosa que si tienen los Nuyoricans es que no se dejan joder de nadie. Pero como decia mi abuela, "si no la cagan a la entrada la cagan a la salida."

En vez de imitar a los judios, los cuales los jodieron hasta el coño y encima de eso eran considerados NEGROS hasta mas o menos 1910, ( leete el libro "working towards White"), los judios cerrron filas y hecharon pa-lante.

Astutos al fin, usaron las herramientas que le dio el sistema, el acceso a la educación, y la entrada libre a la universidad. Eventualmente se hicieron casi dueños de la intellectualidad e instituciones importantes del país en dos generaciones. Como debe saber Suki, los judios eran los communistas y socialistas mas rabiosos en los años 20 y 30. Suki hoy dia es super burguesa la lado de muchos de ellos.

Ahora bien, Si hubieran esperado por la revolucion, todavia estuvieran viviendo en la pobreza en el Lower East side de Nueva York. Al fin de cuentas, enrollaron sus mangas y se fueron a estudiar. Hoy dia son unos conservadores reventaos, pero asi son las cosas.

Nosotros hicimos lo contrario cuando llegamos a partir de 1945. Se nos pegaron las malas mañas del grupo mas marginado del pais, por algo es que tenemos las tasas mas bajas de educacion y mas altas de pobreza y mantengo, sobre pasando los negros mismos.

A cambio los otros Hispanos, excepto por unos pocos, muy pocos, se mantienen firmes usando el sistema Gringo para hechar pa - lante.
Es asi que los Dominicanos, siendo mucho mas negros y pobres que nosotros, tienen tasas de educación, empleo y participacion politica mucho mas altas que las nuestras, y eso que llegaron a partir de 1964.

Una cosa curiosa, Los Dominicanos mantienen su español sea como fuera, no por nacionalismo o por creer en educacion bilingue. Saben que son mas negros que nosotros, algo que no pueden tapar tan facilmente como los Boricuas. Mantienen el español por que no se quieren dejar asimilar por los Negros Gringos. El español los mantiene aparte, separados del grupo mas problematico del pais.

Lo mismo han hecho los "West Indians", se mantienen aparte. Por eso son los negros que mas van a las universidades de Ivy League y tienen el nivel de vida mas alto entre los negros.

[Stanley]

Miranda:

El complejo es algo serio. Llevo años hablando de estos boricuas de NY que se ponen banderas de PR hasta en los calzoncillos. Ese patriotismo de tercera categoría refleja un complejo inmenso. Estos Nuyorican amañan la historia de PR para su conveniencia. Muchos crean web sites y enseñan retratos de mujeres Tainas en PR:


Una india Taina en Morovis.

Resulta que también tenemos bandera Taina:




¡Esto es esquizofrenia de la buena!

Fíjate, mientras crecí en PR nunca pensé en eso de que eramos menos o mas que otra gente. Como joven no tenía esos conceptos de diferencias raciales o de clase social.

Tenía compañeros de escuela americanos y me acuerdo como los quemábamos por hablar español con acento. Recuerdo un gringuito que le decía a la maestra tú en vez de usted y me moría de la risa cuando la maestra se enfurecía. Yó me decía "coño que confianza le tiene este a la maestra". En la UPR tenía un par de compañeros españoles y recuerdo como rompiamos a hablar con la "Z" para bacilar con ellos.

El complejo empezó cuando visité a Nueva York y me encontré un gringo que se estaba quejando de los puertorriqueños. Mi primera reacción fue mandarlo al carajo, pero luego comprobé que a lo mejor ese gringo tenía un punto. Entonces esto creo confusión------fue algo así como perder la inocencia o descubrir que Santa Claus no existe. Me dije: "coño, la verdad es que hay mucha ralea".

Esto se puede interpretar como "self-hate". Sin embargo, creo que lo que sentí fue diferente pues había vivido toda la vida en la isla y no tenia ese concepto. Cuando crecí en PR nunca bregué con nada de eso y jamás pensé en la diferencia de clases. Sinceramente-----nunca hice un análisis de lo que era ser puertorriqueño. Nunca me encontré diferente a otras personas de otras naciones.

He mencionado esto antes: Cuando miraba a Clemente jugar pelota no tenía idea de que era moreno. Conocí a Rafael Hernandez cuando jugaba beisbol de pequeñas ligas. Este señor siempre venía a ver a su hijo jugar. Jamás miré a Rafael Hernandez como un afro-puertorriqueño.

Como dice el refrán Chino:

"Una vez que uno pierde la inocencia-------jamás la recupera".

[Suki]

What does that mean Miranda and Stanley? You either are into personal ambition as your 'mission' in life--or you are not. I stopped trying to typecast people a long time ago---when I realized that trying to find 'typical' whatever people was a futile endeavor. It is best to see people as who they are. However uncomfortable that is. What is a Nuyorican? What is a Black man in the USA? Who are they? Does it say anything about the individual or about the group that is significant or not? Do all social or economic markers apply to all people? Without huge mistakes and errors being committed in the process of trying to make generalizations?

When I say I don't live with contradictions I mean I don't live with a contradiction in values. I don't. I never placed my value system in two places at once. I learned many eons ago that all things in life worth having takes sacrifice and responsibility. The independentistas if they are sincere and are dedicated, don't live with contradictions that are difficult to reconcile. The ones living with serious contradictions are the ones who keep on believing all kinds of false premises about the real world of sweat, corruption and power relationships. And the elitists are those who are out for themselves and don't serve anyone really except themselves. Many politicians fall into that category. Others think erroneously that they can change the system best by being a part of it and conforming to its 'rules'. They don't seem to realize that a rotten system doesn't allow for challenge and change that is significant through reform.

So many Puerto Ricans think that Uncle Sam is the victim here. Lol. How foolish is that? Very foolish.

Miranda if you could only see where I live? How I live? What relationships I have and with whom---I think if you could you would never, ever say I was an elitist or a burguesa ever again. In fact, I think you would find me hard to understand. LOL. You would not be the first one. I come from a family that is rare and not that common. Educated Puerto Ricans who don't and have not given a damn about money or personal ambition, but who do what no one has done before. I don't expect you to understand it at all Miranda. Maybe someday if you read some literature of mine someday, you might get an idea what it is like. Who knows? Everyone remains a mystery on the internet.

Miranda did you know I never learned to drive a car until I was in my thirties? I never was interested in driving a car, until I had to learn due to a life or death situation. Then I had to learn. I lived without a phone or a car for years. It was good---gave me time to think and read, and listen to interesting concepts that take time to understand.

I think people think that all good things come from a 'system' (some capitalist system of values on how to live a decent life or some such non-sense). They don't. It comes from people. HUMAN BEINGS. The creative part of human beings---the innovators, the curious, the thinkers, the creative and the strange. The system ironically always tries to keep that part of humanity under control. It fails. If it did not fail we would not have anything that is the impetus of all change.

Following the masses? The masses all have to face eventually what all of us face as human beings. I am sure you don't need me to tell you what it is. I have learned a lot about what human beings really need in order to survive and then thrive. And it is not gadgets, or things, or possessions or many things.

I think I know some people that know what matters for real in life. That are not lost by all the bling as you say Miranda, and finally understand how to distinguish what is superficial and what is of substance and indispensable. And I am thinking of those people right now. !

Miranda have you thought what the underlying motivation is for a lot of human behavior? Why would people follow a 'losing' proposition? Why people continue to test the waters and go against the tide? Why people risk a lot for something that might lead to their own ruin or death? Have you ever considered why some people refuse to lead lives that are prescribed to them by society? Why very few human beings committ class suicide? Why so few break away from what is inculcated to them from birth? Why some always seek out answers no matter how hard the questions become for them?

Why do human beings do that? Why can't they just agree and continue on?

So many people I have met have surprised me so much Miranda. Why they say? Why risk so much for such an unknown result they tell me? Why lose your personal freedom for something that might be a losing proposition? It never occurs to them that where they see the glass half empty, I see it half full. Somehow, they stopped seeing all the infinite possibilities in life, and allowed themselves to be limited for all the wrong reasons. Have you ever looked into the eyes of a very young child and thought, "Look at all those infinite possibilities? What beauty there is in just the thought of all that can be possible. How did I ever lose that in the first place?"

Hmmm, Miranda reads "Claridad"? I wonder why? [/font][/size]