Y siguen hablando los "Self Hating Porro Ricans"

[L_F_Miranda]

Irionically, I'll write in English in the hope that more Puerto Ricans will join in

I fully understand that many State side Puerto Ricans feel more comfortable conversing in this language , so here goes.

Any conversation about COLOR is very electrifying, it causes short circuits and more so via this medium where we are faceless and have to keep things simple because most people, me included, won't read LOOOOOOng rantings.

First of all Suki, I want you to know that I don't have it for you, Eddier or anyone else. I just state what I believe in and even that is subject to change. Therefore I tend to be a flexible individual, but "I DO HAVE MY BELIEFS," which have been a product of life experiences.

About my obsession with Nuyoricans, like Stanley, it's been a product of our experiences with this group in the past.

You must understand that, we Puerto Ricans tend to be "PARANOIDS", we are basically insular, but never reach the insularity of Red State Gringos.

Why are we paranoid? We are a society that has fought tooth and nail to maintain our Hispanic identity in face of a massive steam roller of an Empire that has tried to make us into Hawaiians. We are always VIGILANT of those who WE THINK are trying to IMPOSE different cultural values, or a cosmo vision that is alien to the way we've done things for the past 500 years.

The central point of our iDENTITY is the Spanish language. It keeps us within the Latin American community, it keeps assimilation at bay, its been the central point of our struggle to remain Puerto Ricans.

But not all is that simple. The massive migration to the states of our people has added a new element to the mix, the NUYORICANS!

Who are Nuyoricans? Nuyoricans are now almost any Puerto Rican who lives in the states and has "internalized a mixture of values", mostly taken from the poor and marginalized African American community.

Strange but true, when many Nuyoricans move on to the the middle class they tend to drop the African American value system and take on a Blue collar white identity, similar to that of Italian or Irish Americans. These transformed Nuyoricans, if "look white", tend to become arch conservatives and racists, example, Another Rican and some others.

Different from other ethnic groups, the more leftist and very vocal Nuyoricans have forged an identity among themselves, flirting here and there with being Puerto Rican but not truely comprehending what is Puerto Rican. To them Puerto Rico is the folkloric stuff, pasteles, Playas lindas, bailes, just to name a few. They feel proud of the gaudy display in the Puerto Rican Day parade without knowing that it fills the pockets of the Rican poverty pimps who run it.

The more leftists, or lets say, vociferous and angry Nuyoricans, have picked up the COLOR discourse of the Afro-American community. They fail to comprehend that Black people from other countries, West indians, Africans etc, have refused this cultural imposition. Many Puerto Ricans and now some Dominicans have fallen within this vortex. Some Dominicans already call themselves, DOMINIYORKS!

Yes, the question of color is an issue in our society but we've found ways to tackle it. Although its a long term process, WE MIX! Our identity is not based on color like its is in the Afro-American community. However, I'm the first to admit that our form of "Whiteness" is the goal of the mix.

Another thing that Nuyoricans fail to understand is that being Black in America is not just the color, its a CULTURE, a historical experience, a language, food, and styles of functioniong in a society that rejects them.

What Nuyoricans also fail to percieve is that the political establishment of Black Americans DON"T REALLY LIKE US, they USE US! When push comes to shove they'll screw us up without a blink.

To me Nuyoricans seem to be naive, and really don't comprehend what the hell is the problem!

Most have lost Spanish and many have concocted and folkorized a system of parallel identity based on Spanglish, a dialect that was taken as an afront on the island when they tried to legitimize its use in schools on the mainland and on the island. Many Nuyoricans interpreted our rejection of Spanglish as our wanting to be WHITE and not embracing their suffering brothers and sisters on the mainland.

Yes Suki, in America there is a division of WHITE and BLACK Americans. This is NOT OUR CASE on the island. Its not because we are stupid, or want to be White. A quick look will acknowledge a MIX, a HUGE MIX! We just don't deal with color in a Gringo style, and I think that should be understood and respected! We've won our stripes keeping Gringo imposition at a distance and we are not about to cave in 500 years of historical struggle and forging a distinct identity to keep Nuyoricans happy.

[Suki]

Miranda said:

Yes Suki, in America there is a division of WHITE and BLACK Americans. This is NOT OUR CASE on the island. Its not because we are stupid, or want to be White. A quick look will acknowledge a MIX, a HUGE MIX! We just don't deal with color in a Gringo style, and I think that should be understood and respected! We've won our stripes keeping Gringo imposition at a distance and we are not about to cave in 500 years of historical struggle and forging a distinct identity to keep Nuyoricans happy.[/b][/quote]

Okay Miranda. I read what you wrote and I understood. You don't want a long rant from anyone. I will make it brief---there are a lot of contradictions in Puerto Rico. There are island boricuas who basically don't know one damn thing about how USA society works. They don't know the class distinctions and the language issue and the racial categories. They live in an almost 100% Latin American society reality---far from many things, but close to consumerism and the American way of shopping etc. I understand that. I always have. Everything you wrote I understood. What I don't understand is how you can believe that the average Puerto Rican is incapable of changing if it becomes necessary and critical to change or perish. That is my question to you? I am not irrealistic at all. I know the problems we are facing. Just how hard it is to cope with all the problems. I understand that Miranda.

Yes, Puerto Ricans have dealt with a lot. Yes, Puerto Rican society is deteriorating at its current rate. Yes, there will be chaos and mayhem if and when the USA pulls out. That doesn't stun me, or faze me either. That is a given. What I find incredible is that so many Puerto Ricans both in the mainland and the island don't seem to understand what it is going to take to have real significant change happen in Puerto Rico. This colonialism scene Gringo styled for over one hundred years is not going to end smelling like roses. And you don't have to study the Iraqi debacle to know it. You just need to be a student of history and a person of wisdom. But, if the Puerto Rican identity is strong enough it will survive the storm, no matter how hard it gets. And up until now I have not heard that from you---maybe I have not read it or interpreted your writings correctly. You certainly have many valid points Miranda.

In terms of Eddier having it in for you---you won't understand Eddier like you should. You just don't and I doubt you ever will. Many see him as dogmatic and inflexible and passe and so on. I have read many exchanges between him and others in other fora besides this one too...Eddie though has never been one to be stuck on small concepts. He sees things in the light of economic relationships---and that is what drives colonialism. If anyone is right on the analysis of the dynamics of what drives imperialism and why they forge their empires off the back of the less powerful places (like Puerto Rico) Eddie is the one who has it right.

Unfortunately the world is not as evolved as it should be. That is highly unfortunate. We know all the mess there is out there. What is important is to hear how we are going to survive it and in which way can we get out of the mess---I am sure you understand me Miranda.

I have not read anything from Eddie in a long time. I hope he is in good health still. He might have decided to move on. He is Puerto Rican because he chooses to be. But that is tiny compared to his dedication to international Communism. I don't care about nationalities that much, or what race you are or some such circumscribed way of thinking. All I care about is if you are willing to sacrifice and struggle for solving the issues that are the most pressing and are really heavy duty to solve in this world.

Our issues are not that different in the final analysis from many billions of other human beings in the world. They are not all that different.

Suki[/size]

[Stanley]

Like Miranda, I will switch to English for the benefit of others.

Suki:

How old is your kid? I remember I loved the opposite sex as early as 4-5 years of age.

I had a huge crush on my 5th grade teacher. One day my dad came to pick me up in school and I noted how he checked my teacher out. I told my dad my teacher was hot and my dad agreed. It is one of those "father son" moments that I never forget.

The only issue of concern is growing up liking the opposite sex because one needs validation. In other words-------it becomes an issue of low self-esteem and the only thing that works is affirmation by the opposite sex.

Regarding our view of race in PR. When I was a kid I did not make much of distinction between trigueños and fair skin PR folks. To me it looked all the same. I only noted color if someone was truly 100% nordic or 100% African. Anything in between looked the same to me.

I truly believe that racism is a learned habit and when we come to the states we tend to learn the way gringos view race and their obsession for classification. The more they classify the more racist they are and paradoxically------------ the minorities want to be classified. It seems everybody wants a status or a name.

Shortly after coming to the USA a gringo heard me talk in Spanish and asked me if i was Hispanic. I said, no------I am form PR. Then he said, so you are hispanic. I said once again---no I am from PR. In my mind a hispanic was a native from Hispania the Roman name for the Hispanic or Iberic Peninsula.

Shortly afterwards I was told I was a minority. Like a fool I thought it meant I looked younger than 18. So yes, we are ignorant about how gringos see the world and how they classify everybody.

In any event I think this innocence and lack of concern regarding race is the issue Miranda was trying to explain.

Suki, I will not deny we have race issues, but they are rooted in something else and this is likely due to class differences, quality of parents, ect, ect.

When I studied medicine in PR many years ago there was only one med school in the island and only 100 students got selected out of 3000 applicants. The UPR school had USA accreditation and we had a couple of gringos in the class as well as about 12-15 Cubans.

There were only two people from the public school system out of 100 students. There was only one truly black student in the class. In other words, this class did not reflect the average PR person in the street. Oops, I forgot to mention that about 25 of the students got in because of the so-called “pala”.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that no one went into a closed dark door room to exclude people because of the color of the skin.

Oops----dinner calls!

[L_F_Miranda]

Suki,

The average Puerto Rican is not much different from the average any body on this planet. We eat, sleep, fornicate, and have our own particular idiosyncracies and political leanings as any "Juan de los Parlotes" in the world.

About consumerism, and specially the gringo kind with Malls and 99¢ stores in every barrio, IT'S A WORLD WIDE PHENOMENON! In fact, its the real Freedom of the poor. Its what keeps them happy and under control. Its what kept Conmmunism at a distance during the Cold War and what has screwed up our Independence movement since the 1960's.

Should we feel guilty about being a run-a-way consumer society while other nations, specially those in the socialist camp, fight to show us "THE Right Way?"

Think again.............

I was astonished when I went to Hanoi last year. The city is one big consumer paradise, with stores on every corner full of plastic junk. People would fight each other to grab a hold of what was on sale that day. In Saigon a.k.a. Ho-Chi-Migh City, the situation was worse. Communist country? Yeah right!

However on a different wave are North korea and Cuba, sold to us a purer examples of socialist societies. In fact this first country, which is a 1950's Stalinist hold out, can't even feed its people but its leader spends hundreds of dollars sprucing up his Pompadeur hair du. Close to us, Cuba is a mess! Collecting street garbage is a chore. The attitude in Havana is "que lo haga otro. Prostitutes are making a brisk business near the tourist hotels of El Vedado. Panties are enough payment. Communist paradise, yeah right again! LOL

Yes I understand Eddier's Marxist ideas, which in reality were once thought to be gaining ground after the 1917 Russian Revolution. It was a time when the Socialist International was in vogue, when Nationalism was thought to be a control mechanism of the burgeosie and the Capitalist class. It was a world in which the workers of the world were supposed to unite under the banner of brotherhood and workers solidarity.

In reality Nationalism has out lived this idea. Once thought to be a dying XIX century ideology it has quickly sprung back into action. In fact it was what saved the Cuban revolution from being wiped off the map by Kennedy and company back in 1960. It has saved us from becoming another Hawaii and has given the U.S second thoughts about annexation. It's giving the U.S. a run for its money in Iraq. No Suki, Nationalism is not dead yet, but the 1930's socialist International and worker's solidarity has been toast since 1939, when Hiltler made a pact with Stalin.

About colonialism, I have to agree with Eddier, its a tool used by Capitalist's to control less sophisticated lands and rob them of all they have. However its has also been a curse for the various Metropolises that had colonies, including the U.S. Why? Because the Metropolis has been swamped with un-asimilable colonials causing great problems and turning these societies to question themselves.

About the world evolving "as it should" , what kind of crap is this! should we evolve the way Eddier wants to? The way you want to? The way Stanley wants to? The way I want to?

I recently came across a book titled, THE BLACK SWAN, by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. He stresses that it remains IMPOSSIBLE to predict the fate of things with absolute certainty. For example, we expect swans to be white and then we are shocked when a black swan swims by. In other words, Chance has far more influence than we care to admit.

In our case, independence , statehood or even Free Assocaition has a chance in this topsy turvy world we live in.

The socialist international of 1935? Who knows, it might still be revived but I won't hold my breath.

[Suki]

Stanley, my son is nine years old. He is in third grade. He just got a used trumpet he is crazy about and he plays it all the time. He gets straight A's in music, dance and art and PE. He gets ok grades in everything else and has real problems with mathematics. Lol. I got him into a program I like for his math problems. I am seeing improvement. He is a graceful little kid and draws beautifully, sings beautifully and is extremely adept at anything physical. He is very tall for his age and I think has a lot of charisma in general. Both my husband and I have always loved artistic things---and so we are pleased---but we want him to work on his weaknesses not his strengths.

It is obvious he likes women and girls. The little girl I found he was writing love notes to was the prettiest thing I have ever seen. She is from Chile and has the loveliest eyes in a child I have ever seen. All the girls and women he seems to like are extraordinarily pretty. And it is obvious he is going to like girls and want a girlfriend in his adolescence. He is wise for his years though---he has been through many years of foster care and pain and problems that would break an adult in two by now....any adult that would have gone what he has gone through would be a mess. Somehow he has a lot of strength---such strength. He is a survivor and has a strong will....a very strong will. IT will serve him well in this life. He loves to learn. And he surprises me with his commentaries all the time. He notices my love of reading, thinks I am a fine dancer and cook, and competes for my affection with my husband. He is a beautiful little kid. I wonder how he is going to take all of our 'instruction' and 'suggestions' and 'guidance' and see what he will do with it.

I never thought I would be the mother someday of a son like him. I find now, it is a whole lot of fun! It is a lot of work. Especially at the beginning. I am old fashioned in certain things. I don't believe in electronic games and anti social activities without learning something of substance. I expect him to learn Spanish and other foreign languages and I gave him no choice on learning it. It was imperative he learn it. His school is mostly in Spanish, hard work, with two hours of homework a night at least. The tube is in Spanish, music, books magazines and conversations for MONTHS non-stop with no excuses. He learned it. He had no other choice. Many parents make the mistake of going easy on the foreign language stuff. People don't understand that if you want multilingual kids you got to prioritize it. They don't and many people lose fluency through lack of usage of the language. Language is like a muscle of the body. You don't use it and it atrophies. Everyone thought it was incredible how fast he learned it. Especially when the social workers thought he was of only average intelligence. All kids are very intelligent language learners---the adults in their lives fail to give them the learning opportunities. Their own prejudices and fears impede the progress on all levels. They think it is easier to let them off the hook. It is all a balancing act with the kids.

We had to deal with every problem with him. Of all kinds. But the time investment and the effort investmente was intense and it was really worth it. I think most of the people who go through all the hassles to adopt like we do, are very dedicated in general. So, the results are good at least in our case.

I think the solution for many issues is just how willing you are to cope with problems and just how dedicated you are to finding a solution for it. [/size]

[Suki]

Miranda, I disagree on your assessment of things. I see how you can see it your way. But, I think seeing it as 'consumption' is the worldwide phenomenon. No, it is what has been pushed by the powers that be. That people see that as the endall of everything. I really have my doubts about that conclusion. I do.

Poverty is the norm. Not the exception. The vast majority of the world's populations don't and can't consume like your average middle class suburban Gringo family living in Glendale, USA. Even at the 99 cent stores. The big crisis predicted in the future for a vast majority of the nations in the world is going to be some really basic resource battles. Like energy and water. In fact water wars are in the making if something is not done to stop what is happening on a global scale. No such thing as consumption without end.

I really don't care what some hookers in Russia or Cuba do. There are hookers all over the world. Drug dealers and so on too. That is what human consciousness and its realities breeds when things are the way they are. Whether a person is a pimp in some Bunny Ranch in Nevada or some pimp in Moscow or Lima, Peru or Mexico City---it takes the same mentality to do that kind of thing. It has nothing to do if a system is sound theoretically or even in praxis. The reality is that resistance to its implementation by the powers that be effects the praxis. Whether someday the praxis becomes more in line with the theory depends on what kind of consciousness level and dedication those who deal with it are willing to do or where they are willing to go to get that accomplished. Old and oppressive crappy systems are always easier to do than others. The key is if the society is ready to make the changes and do the sacrifices necessary to cope with the new circumstances or not. Human history is filled with failed civilizations. All unwilling to change when they had to. That is the way of it. It doesn't mean humans don't learn from their failures. They do. They have to.

People don't know what is going on unless it is something concrete. And all events that effect the real living conditions of people are the impetus of social and economic systemic change that is permanent. What do people know? What they have experienced. And the vast majority of human beings are just surviving and consuming on low levels. There are those living in the middle classes, indebted to their eyeballs to visa and mastercard. There are those playing the stock market. There are those living off minimum wage and going to the fifty cent on Tuesdays movies because that is all they can afford. That is reality.

Is the system as is without changes functioning is the big question? Is it? Capitalism is the ticket? Neo-liberal trickle down economics functioning? I don't think so. The best system is always the hardest to implement and practice. Why? Because it is 'el hueso duro' that so many should not fear, but they do. Why? Because it requires change that is profound and challenging. And that is what is the obstacle for many. People fear what they don't know or can't understand. But once they understand it and see it for what it can be and work to make it work and see the results in a positive way, they won't go back to the old way. It is all about the nature of societal change. Resistance and compliance. Give and take. Back and forth. Until a balance is struck. It is the law of this world.

[L_F_Miranda]

Suki:

I don't expect you to agree with everything I say, you have a RIGHT to disagree! We just have different experiences and those experiences mold the way we view the world. Age also has something to do with it. As I move on to a mature existence I look back and take an inventory of a life lived. There have been many changes and a lot of those changes have been disappointments, like Cuba, and others, a surprise, like China.

I have a feeling the things Stanley and I write about here are totally incomprehensible to many, specially to those who have lived in the U.S since very young. Stanley and I talk about a world that has practically disappeared. We are nostalgic about it because we believe it had more logic to it. What I notice in many, not all, stateside Puerto Ricans is a lot of anger, possibly due to a certain marginalization from the wider society. I have my own take on this, some of which I have already discussed before.

I'm also getting to the point of believing that Culture + Social Class out look + Educational Standards + knowing when to "POSPONE" has a lot to do with moving people on to a lasting development and progress.

About Consummerism, I think people indulge in it because they believe it leads to happiness and confort. Its the way most people go about trying to make a mark for themselves in the world.

Suki, you can live with much less consumerism and be content, while others will never understand your dislike for Bling, flashiness and a daily display of pretentiousness. Remember, living ascetically, is your choice, not necesarilly of others.

Yes poverty is a concern however I've gotten to a point in my life where I know poverty will never be wiped out in the way I once envisioned. The funny thing about poverty is that once one kind get wiped out, up pops another kind and so on down the line. Its a never ending cycle.

About extereme poverty, like the one in Haiti or in Central Africa, I've given up! There is something in these societies that will never click, at least not in my life time. Once we thought Independence would fix things up but they're not much better off than under colonialism. In fact, some African nations, like Ghana have been sold to us as experiments in socialism, Yeah right!

Yes, its the old colonial powers + capitalism interfering, but its also the natives themselves. What is it?, I can't put a finger on it! Imagine, some of these nations still have slavery, run by the Blacks themselves. I give up!

I began having close friends begin dying off at age 47, just like that. It proved to me that life is unpredictable and I had better get off my ass and stop figuring out how Africans will move on to the XX century. I have enough problems thinking about a little island 100 X 35 sq. miles, with a population of 3.5 million. Its future happens to be my focal point, the roots of my culture, my standing point on this planet.

If Africans, Haitians or American Blacks can't get their act together I just try to sympathize and move on. Bottomline, my people are my first worry at this moment. Yes, I understand that poverty is the product of racism, control of the weak, exploitation and bla bla bla, but my life is too short to wallow on something that, as I see it, is way and beyond my capacities to comprehend, much less fix. And in the long run, when you think you have figured out some sort of answer, along pops something else to prove you wrong.