Status and those living in The United States.

[L_F_Miranda]

Status and those in the U.S. was a topic originally brought up by Euro-Gringo. Its an interesting subject which could start up heated discussions here. However its a pity that Euro-Gringo since then has disappered. MMMM too many Medalla's in San Lorenzo? I hope we haven't scared him off completely.

Anyhow, Euro-Gringo was Right! Many Puerto Ricans living in the U.S are highly interested in the P.R. status issue, in fact some might go overboard.

However I wonder if we are just being very American doing this? I believe that ethnic politics is not such a big deal in the States, in fact its a "Modus Operandi", a way of doing things, a.k.a MO. Why?

Has any one noticed how involved U.S. Jews are with the fate of Israel? Anyone who barges in trying to tell them that there should be a just settlement in the area has often been accused of anti-semitism.

My opinion: I believe that the Jews have blinders and can't see that procrastinating a just settlement will eventually destroy what they're trying to conserve, a Jewish state.

As time moves on two things will eventually happen,

1- Jews will become a minority group in Israel surrounded by a hostile and exploding Arab population. They will have to impose an apartheid like government, the rule of a minority ( Jews) over a hostile majority (Arabs).

2- As more time is wasted, a Palestinean state will no longer be economically viable. Expanding Jewish settlements on Arab land will seal the fate of Israel. This might open up the door to Bi-national state where both groups have to coexist or kill each other off. However the numbers might be be on the Palestinean side, its scary.

Discussing this in the United States is Taboo.

Another group which are intransigent are the Irish. They hate the Brits and rightfully so. They accuse them of a mini holacaust during the potato famine.
On the other hand we have the Irish in Northern Ireland who function like Puerto Rican Statehooders, they don't want to be Irish. However they are treated as so by the Brits.

Irish in the states are known to be strong supporters of the IRA, sending them lots of money and guns. Although the IRA are branded terrorists, "but one people's terrorists are another people's heroes," go figure.

African Americans were highly responsible for the fall of the South African Apartheid government.

There are many such groups in the states screaming and ranting about the politics in their ancestral lands, why do Puerto Ricans have to be different? Do we have to live on the island to have a say? Can we be like the Jews, Irish, Afros and many other groups living comfortably in the states and having a say? LOL Why apply a double standard to mainland Puerto Ricans? After all if "Other" Ethnic groups can state opinions, why can't we?

[Suki]

I had a small conversation the other day with a co-worker. She asked me if I was 'Spanish', since she overheard me speaking on the phone in Spanish with my family and was 'surprised' since I spoke such 'accent-free' English and all. LOL.

I told her I was not 'Spanish'. I was Puerto Rican. She then said, "Oh, that is all the same thing. Everyone has to be so politically correct nowadays. We are all just plain Americans anyway." If we were all plain Americans then why hasn't there ever been an African American president or vice president? Obama might have a possibility some think, but for many African Americans he is too white....not black enough. For some whites he is not 'white' enough. For some liberals he is not liberal enough. In conclusion, the USA is not the melting pot in which all groups unite in harmony and brotherhood and sisterhood like so many people think is the case or hope is the case.

Yes, there are many people who think if you are an independentista you should live only in Puerto Rico. My answer is an example. Many independentistas get sent to Connecticut, New Jersey, and etc. to stand trial for their 'pro-independence' activities in Puerto Rico. WHY? Because the USA federal government doesn't trust the jury in Puerto Rico to give the independentistas the 'justice' that they deserve. We are ingrates and troublemakers and Anti-Americans and so on and so on. After all America brought unprecedented prosperity to Puerto Rico and granted us the greatness of second class statutory USA citizenship.

So many forget Malcolm X's old answer to how he thought about the patronizing tones of many European background Americans---his answer for describing the African experience in the USA is very accurate for Puerto Ricans as well. After all, we are not Mexicans, or Canadians. "Plymouth Rock landed on us. We did not land on Plymouth Rock." The Mayflower and the Pilgrims and the Protestant Ethic and Capitalism and the wonders of the robber barons of industry are not about us. In looking at our perspective within the USA system one should see it with a bit more historical objectivity. The USA came looking for us---for many valid reasons at the time. And they must be held accountable for the consequences of their decisions taken long ago. What many don't want to deal with is that the USA federal gov't has been very unfair and very hipocritical on many levels---and Puerto Rico is not the only case study. So, they try to say, "ingrates. If you cared about Puerto Rico why aren't you living there now?" and I could say, "Why are people from Texas living in California? Why are undocumented people running into places they have no business in? Why is the USA intervening in nations they have no business intervening in? Why can't the USA gov't and its sticky hands keep their noses out of other people's territories?"

The short answer is that the nature of modern capitalism doesn't allow it. And all of it has consequences. Diasporas are part of it. IF all was ideal in the world, people could stay in their home nations and live out their lives in peace and prosperity. But obviously that is not the case is it? Simplistic crap such as, "If you are Puerto Rican you should stay in Puerto Rico, doesn't wash anywhere." I could say, "If you are a big multinational Gringo based corporation you should stay out of weak infrastructure third world nations and not keep paying people peanut salaries and using the natural resources that don't belong to you for nefarious purposes." But people keep on in their ahistorical comparisons without any validity anchored in logic and in reality. It is all about---"They should be proud and grateful to be part of this great nation that has given them so much. After all we are the GREATEST nation on Earth and are the most generous, the most x,y,z and all that jazz....it is really incredible there are people who really believe all that in this age and time. But there are millions who think like that. Siempre me sorprende.

Short answer, "I will leave the greatest nation on Earth when the greatest nation on Earth decides it needs to leave Puerto Rico." But since the greatest nation on Earth doesn't want to leave us alone, then I have the right to be here and bug the hell out of those who keep wanting to sweep their misdeeds under the international rug. Lol.

I read a historical document describing many supposed 'foreigners' who lived in Rome, when the Roman Empire was at its greatest historical and economic peak. The Roman Citizens said, "they come to Rome because Rome is the Greatest place on Earth to be." And if I am not mistaken some slave from Northern Africa said, "We come to Rome because Rome has not given us any other alternative. Our home cities are under Roman rule and if we disobey Roman rule we die or are tortured the Roman way. It is not a relationship free of intimidation, it is a relationship based on survival. We all want to survive, and if Rome has taken our wealth, then we shall follow the wealth even if it means leaving our only home. For above all, people must keep living." Such wisdom from the mouth of a slave at the time. It is strange that the same dull arguments are being spouted in supposedly a more advanced democratic republic. It is kind of discouraging. And it is very interesting that so many people don't realize it.

What keeps recycling through history is very interesting...indeed.

Suki

[RPR]

Anyhow, Euro-Gringo was Right! Many Puerto Ricans living in the U.S are highly interested in the P.R. status issue, in fact some might go overboard.


Most PR's didn't even know that there was a bill recently being pushed in the US Congress. Sure, everyone has an opinion on the status but not many track the issue on a regular basis or much less partake in any type of action that will bring us closer to a resolution. The only exception would be the recent influx of Boricuas in Florida where they are kept well informed through the local media both in English and in Spanish.In fact, this recent statehood pushed is due to Central Florida Boricuas flexing their political muscle.Hmm will they eclipse the Northeast Boricuas in political power? In some ways they already have but thats another topic.My experience overwhelmingly has been that most 2nd or 3rd generation PR's are not interested in the island unless we are talking about a vacation. Those who were raised in the states will tell you "I could never live there". Yesterday, a co-worker of mine of Puerto Rican descent who was born and raised here told me very snobbily if I may add,that she had "no interest" in ever visiting Puerto Rico. This after, hearing her spill about how she wants to broaden her horizons and was planning on visiting the UK.

The political disconnect lies with 2nd or 3rd generation Boricuas who tend to be Americanized and view themselves as being part of the US but with a separate identity just like Chicanos or even Italian-Americans. And naurally as they assimilate and intermarry they tend to moved out of the barrios and into the blue collar suburbs. This is primarily happening in the Northeast where its not unusual to find Puerto Ricans married with other Latinos,Italians,blacks and just about any combination imaginable.The political plays will increasingly come from Florida.Its already happening.

[RPR]

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I had a small conversation the other day with a co-worker. She asked me if I was 'Spanish', since she overheard me speaking on the phone in Spanish with my family and was 'surprised' since I spoke such 'accent-free' English and all. LOL.


I once was asked the same question and quipped back "are you English". I was younger back then and much more smart mouth. I could see why someone non-Hispanic might not know the difference. If I had a dollar for everytime I heard a young Latino say things like "Spanish music" "Spanish restaurant" etc.


Everyone has to be so politically correct nowadays. We are all just plain Americans anyway."



This is the post 9/11 rhetoric. This needed to be sold to the American public mainly the minority community so they could die in the coming wars and aventures of Bush and his neo-cons. I remember how the media bombarded us with the theme of a United America. American flags went flying everywhere. Hilary and Obama voted for an unjust war. What a difference a few years make.

[L_F_Miranda]

RPR, I guess you put a very interesting perspective on this topic.

I guess I was overstating the fact that Stateside Ricans were interested in the status issue, MMMMMMM maybe my wishful thinking. In fact, most aren't!

I agree, most are in the process of heavy assimilation, with a few here and there giving the impression that Puerto Rico is very important.

I totally agree that the Florida Ricans might be more interested in the issue, but if the issue continues for several more decades their kids will be like those of the Cubans, not too interested in Cuba or thinking of going back to live there.

Another issue with us was the creation of a parallel identity more in tune with Black America, The Nuyoricans! They've become an identity all to themselves, divorced from those on the island.

As I see it Boricuas in the states will eventually fall into two categories in America, those who maintain a traditional Rican identity, similar to most other Latin Americans, and those who align themselves with the agenda of Black America, thus forging a separate identity. To think that these two identities are one and undivided must be fooling themselves.

The first group will still continue with strong ties to the island until assimilation takes its course. The second is already on track with Black America and will be difficult to bring back to the fold.

However, like it or not we are all in the process of heavy assimilation in the states, with the exception of one or two holdouts. Its the natural process of things, although many refuse to accept it. In the long run it'll still be, Alcapurrias, sorullitos and pasteles but the requests at a restaurant or El friquitín will be in English.

Bottom line, "Lo folkorico se mantendrá igual pero lo significativo desaparecerá."

[Suki]

This is true in so many ways....the assimilation is an integral part of living in a new culture. Unless one makes very strong and conscious efforts to not assimilate. One must 'acculturate' but never assimilate. That is my philosophy. Those are two separate and distinct concepts.

Nuyoricans are nuyoricans---I think of nuyoricans and I think of Rosie Perez. She says she feels more comfortable speaking English. But she feels in her heart she has ties to Puerto Rico. What I find interesting and still unexplainable are the statehooder Islander Boricuas like Faraon who don't speak English and who dislike American Blacks and Nuyoricans but who really think somehow the white stateside Gringos are Santa Claus and have such fine and lofty intentions and fairness in their very souls. LOL! I find it really something. There is a lot of ignorance going on.

Many people have the folkloric notions of culture. Those as Miranda said are unsubstantial. When a Native American culture is basically dead as my Lakota friend Black Bull told me long ago---it winds up in Museums. It becomes an object of curiosity. But the real living Lakotas are driving Ford trucks, living in manufactured homes and drinking beer on Saturday nights, and only speak little words of Lakota but think, read and speak almost exclusively in English. Just how much of the ancient culture do they retain? Not much. Yet many want to identify themselves as Lakota. It is a very sad thing to see. And it happens all the time.

[Stanley]

"Are you Spanish?" All of us heard that phrase. First time I said NO and walked away, LOL.

BTW, who coined the term Hispanic in the USA? Was it Jesse Jackson? I know he authored the term African-American and it spread like wildfire.

So the first time I was told I was Hispanic I said: "No, I am from PR." I always thought a Hispanic was a native of the Hispanic peninsula (Hispania).

First time they asked me if I was considered a minority I said: ""No, I am older than 18." For someone that just came from PR this stuff was really hard to understand.

Regarding a black president:

For the love of God! A few years ago Blacks could not seat in front of the bus. If one Black becomes president less than 50 years later we are making huge progress. Do not forget-----50 years is basically nothing in terms of history.

However, everybody knows Bama is not black. He is half white and half African. There is nothing black about this guy; in fact he is more like a Puerto Rican. And if he sounds black it will be acting! To me black is the stuff Nuyoricans emulate.

I am thrilled with Bama and I hope he wins-----I will vote for him. Thank God he is not black!

As for PR-----I am on the other side of the nostalgia peak. I will be lucky if I can retire in PR regardless of status.