A BLIP, A one liner and an insult.

[Suki]

Competition and what it means Nelson. I would like for you to expound on that concept if you may. Do you really think that competition is something that Capitalism as practiced today does with fairness and with absolute fairplay and sense of solidarity? Lol. Think about it. How many FCC investigations has happened in Microsoft and etc. for trying to monopolize the market share?

How about Wal-Mart and the death of the mom and pop grocery stores allover the world? Lol. If the USA had a nation as wealthy and powerful as the USA competing for dominance in the world would they be happy or sad? Lol. If the USA could control all the resources in the world and yet had to not do it to simply keep the idea of fair competition alive and allow others to compete toe to toe with them in the world arenas do you think they have the 'fairplay' concept of free market capitalism Adam Smith styled in there? yes or no.

[L_F_Miranda]

OOP's, Suki you are out numbered here! LOL

In reality, what many are saying is that Communism, as put to practice, hasn't been too successful. No, this is not an Americanism, I think even Europeans would have to agree to this one.

Before I continue, we have to understand that Socialism and Communism is the same thing within the Gringo mind set, maybe that's the problem you are having. I'm also including Puerto Rican Statehooders in this bunch because most statehooders in Puerto Rico are within the Disney World and Wal-Mart circuit, they don't think beyond a narrow Gringo world view either.

On the other hand, in Europe, and most other places on this planet, socialism and/or socialist reforms and communism are two separate things. "No es lo mismo ni se escribe igual"

That said, now to continue.

I think that the problem is that Communism looks good on paper, but when put to practice it quite doesn't fit for the way people really are. That is why communist goverments have to be totalitarian to keep the rabble in line.

Nonetheless, I have told you that Communism is GREAT for getting stagnant nations to start off on economic progress, an example, China. Haiti would also benefit from a massive communist revolution.

The other problem facing Communist revolutions is, once the economic process has begun, when do they start letting go of the controls? This is the most difficult part. China and Vietnam are in this process today.

Our most immediate concern.............

The most interesting thing that is happening today is that Nationalism, once thought dead, is on its way to a revival. The problem is that its a xenophobic nationalism, one that is very dangerous, one that borders on facism, in the U.S, in Europe and the Middle East.

Take for example, the immigration Bill that was defeated last week by Congress. It was basically thrown out by the elected majority in tune with a feeling that the country is is being torn apart by outsiders and by those who don't play by the rules. Of course we should all know by now that this is crap, because rules have always been broken. The difference is that those who are breaking the rules these days are Brownies.

But the larger issue here, and one that may affect those Puerto Ricans who want statehood, is the issue that we might be seen as, THE OTHERS, the brown ones.

Its a sad day for those who truely believe in all the crap they've been told about the American system for 109 years! Sooner than later they will all be finding out where they really belong in the American system, inside or out!

Bottomline, It all boils down to US vs.THEM and for most Americans we are not THEM. After all they may be right. We are the "outsiders" who don't speak English and will fight tooth and nail to keep Spanish, playing by OUR RULES not theirs.

[Suki]

[color="Red"]Miranda said:
OOP's, Suki you are out numbered here! LOL

In reality, what many are saying is that Communism, as put to practice, hasn't been too successful. No, this is not an Americanism, I think even Europeans would have to agree to this one.

Suki: Miranda, Communism has never been put to practice. All one has had have been socialist societies emerging out of long and bloody revolutions. And flawed socialist societies in which the bourgeoisie were never eradicated. They just changed allegiances and settled in for the long haul. Any good orthodox Communist could tell you that. Go to politicsforum.org and get a hold of Jaakko of the Communist forum there. He'll explain it to you. Lol. So how can one say a system that never existed failed? You can't. It is like saying "Lord of the Rings" failed as a society. That is propoganda Miranda. Communism in its strictest sense never has existed in praxis. Not yet. Maybe in the future. Who knows? Besides the ultimate goal of communism is to get rid of the state and state government all together. They want no government in the end. Se parecen a los libertarians en eso. The difference is that the libertarians are like Clint Eastwood with rugged individualism and make my day and extreme 'me, and me, and me again' crap that never will build societal progress but just polarize between the haves and the have nots, and are not good theorists, and the Communists go for the group above everything else. No matter what. So, that excuse that it is not successful is not valid. Besides it is not successful for which segment of society? If you are a communist you will go after the ruling class and the rich and confiscate their property and neutralize their influences and establish the dicatorship of the proletariat (the working class) and that means the ex-powerful and wealthy lose it all, but to some poor factory worker who can't even make end's meet that the Communists take over and he then might be able to get into a free university and or learn to read when he was illiterate and some plumbing gets fixed and get a ration card is progress. It is all about which perspective you see it through. The problem is that many in the USA identify with the fantasy of becoming the one percent someday. It is reason why Las Vegas, Nevada makes money. They sell a lie and a fantasy and people buy it and keep the system going. Asi es. And so, communism is a horror for them. The only thing is that things are MESSY and don't work out quite like everyone predicts. It never does in history. People come with a whole cartful of contradictions.

Many right wing Christians think all that should be taken care of by churches. But churches if you study the food banks and the free health clinics are overwhelmed with the need. Social security is broken, and many socialistic services are broken not because they are inherently bad. But because the conservative elements along with the capitalist class doesn't want to fund them or back them adequately and would rather spend the monies on weapons, war, and padding the wallets of those who keep them in office. But if all of the socialism in the USA closes down all together....tomorrow. No child would be going to public school, no free health or dental clinic would be open, no highway or public road would be repaired, no parks upkept, no fixed and low income housing and electricity or water or phone programs for the poor would be in place. And then USA would start to look alike like Mexico and the third world. Over time, it will be. Because what people have been led to believe keeps the USA competitive in the world is not its capitalism and so on. It is its ability to educate, house and keep healthy in a way, its population on a MASS SCALE. If it did not do that. Then forget it. The societies who do spend on socialistic programs like Sweden and France, WILL KICK THEIR BEHINDS ON ALL FRONTS. And the EU with the Euro is coming on strong. So, stop the babosidad people. And pay attention.

Socialism has and will work and it works in a universal sense. It is just people many times don't know what it is in reality. Only what is told to them by those who don't need socialism because they live off their priveleges. Their ability to be owners and use that to live off the ones who got to work or they can't survive. That is the reality. Too bad so many don't understand how it works. Ignorance is not bliss. It never is.

Why don't people question the abysmal failures of capitalism in such nations as Haiti? Mexico? Argentina? Mali? Morrocco? And many nations who follow capitalism but who have HORRENDOUS poverty and people die like flies? No one wants to admit that the safety net all SOCIALISM like public schools accessible to all, health clinics for all, and public housing and shelters for the homeless and etc. are all forms of socialism. And it works in a universal sense and has changed society enormously. They won't. They should realize if the vast majority of people had to pay the actual costs of $10-$15k per student in your average public school out of their pocket. The amount of people being educated in the USA would drop dramatically and the vast majority of people would stay illiterate after a while like what happens in the third world such as South Africa. That if you are broke, then you are out of luck for an education. Cuz they don't have taxes and they don't socialism and they leave the rich rich and the poor poor and too bad and so sad. So many people in the USA live in absolutely IGNORANCE about what is socialism anyway. They are just sold that all socialism is bad cuz of Commies and dictatorship and the gulag. They fail to understand even their own system at all. Son brutos. Let us admit it. They believe whatever propoganda they are fed without question and never pick up a book on political science and try to figure it out for themselves but they want to come on the internet and say they are authorities on what x,y,z is. If you have not done the reading people, then don't pretend you know it when you don't. I recommend for all who have no clue what politics is all about and economic systems consist of to go and take some basic courses. Get an education. It makes debating much more interesting. I LOVE TO LEARN SOMETHING NEW.

I don't care if the dude or dudette I debate with is conservative or not, if they know their stuff and their definitions, then I have a lot more fun. I learn. And it makes it all worthwhile. So, those of you who have been reading here and said to yourself---"I did not know that was, x,y,z." You need to go get an education. Cuz you too are part of the problem of not understanding the differences between fact and opinion and political philosophy that is real and based in actual theory, praxis and text from the original proponent of that philosophy of politics or economics and the propaganda talked about in and disseminated to the masses as 'truth'. Don't be receivers and interpreters of second hand and second class information folks. It makes it hard to debate with some fun. And I am all for fun.

[/b][/size]

[NelsonN]

Originally Posted by Suki

[color="Red"]If you are a communist you will go after the ruling class and the rich and confiscate their property and neutralize their influences and establish the dicatorship of the proletariat (the working class) and that means the ex-powerful and wealthy lose it all, but to some poor factory worker who can't even make end's meet that the Communists take over and he then might be able to get into a free university and or learn to read when he was illiterate and some plumbing gets fixed and get a ration card is progress.

LOL! If you are a US citizen and can't read, don't blame capitalism! The US has plenty of free education, flawed in my view, but you will definitely learn how to read!

The couch potatoes don't even know how to vote and you want them in charge of the country?

Yeah, I want the couch potatoes in charge of my country, sure. LOL!

You make it sound like everyone strides to be a millionaire. You skew and generalize way, way, way too much!

Who do you think I want to be like?

1) A person who makes $400,000 a year, but is $900,000 in debt and can't hardly make ends meet?

or

2) A person making $35,000 a year with $10,000, or less, in debt?

Money is not the end game, it is how you live your life that can bring you happiness. I would be one pissed mother if I had a government telling me where I need to work, how much of an education I need, and how and where I will live.

This is getting to drawn out and it seems that much of your arguments against capitalism are just a hodge podge of arguments you put together from different sources. Whereas I am coming to you from my experiences and what I definitely see as the problem.

I wonder how ahead in the US system you really are. Are you pissed because you haven't been able to create the life you want and are blaming capitalism for it?

I think you will never see that people need to take responsibility, that is what's needed and in my opinion we are farther away from this than you will ever agree.

Have you tried talking to today's youth? It's like they are living in a different planet and with an attitude more indifferent than the word can convey. Their attitude is "who cares? I got my friends to hang out with to be paying attention to the news, that doesn't affect me!"

With attitudes like this, which is the prevailing (non)wisdom, those of us with a shred of hope to see changes are in for a very long wait. And this is the danger we all face, while we wait, someone like you may even turn my country into a communist hell hole. Just because people lack a basic understanding of their true power as voting citizens in a free society. This power is something that you lack the potential to see.

And if families have it so tough in the US, why is it that in Puerto Rico 4 out of 5 Puerto Ricans own one car, 31% own two cars, 9% own three cars, and 3% percent own four or more cars? And Puerto Rico is poorer than the poorest US state.

[L_F_Miranda]

Suki, I'm surprised you wrote the previous rant.

We all should know by now that Pure systems or ideas of purity exist only on paper. Revolutionaries and religious whackos of the past have used pure theory as a guide, a GUIDE ONLY! The ideal was gravitate towards the pure system or the City of God, but we all know what happens when following purity, it's corrupted somewhere on the yellow brick road.

Haven't you learned that from Stalin, Castro, and Christian/ Muslim fundamentalists?

Take Anarchism, the terrorists of the late 19th and early 20th century. They were aslo led by an idealized theory, which never materialized. The closest they got to power was in Spain during the civil War and we all know what happened, they screwed up the Republic for a dream and helped start a nightmare for half a century.

And about you pals on the socialism web site, they are all just getting old and living in a time warp, but like you say, conversing with them is all for fun.

[Suki]

Miranda, if you don't want a challenge on your ideas of what something in THEORY means, then don't write in those fora. Lol. Jaakko is a man in his twenties and a moderator there (and he aint old or dumb either). Why don't you ask him why he sticks to such an old and obsolete and useless political philosophy? After all he is intelligent and young? See what he says? I would like to see you do that Miranda. If you don't....then my theory that you don't like people questioning your theories and proposals stands. Jaakko belongs to the Communist Party of Finland. Lol. There are Australian socialists, and many many others of all kinds. There are all kinds of people there, some Communists, some Socialists, some Capitalists and Conservative. Some anarchists, and etc. Variety. The spice of life is variety, and good political debates. The Communists and Socialists are from all over the world. So are the more conservative among them.

Reality? You think Capitalism is not real? Of course it is real. As real as being dead as a doornail if you are damn poor and don't have money for an operation and your life is worth nothing because you live in poverty in a third world country and no one gives a damn if you live or die....because that is the ugly reality of it all. Life in this present system is not FAIR at all Miranda. Does that mean we give up and become total and complete cynics looking to Cover Our Own Rear Ends first?...and to hell with the next person? That is the easy thing to do. It always has been. What is hard is trying to struggle for something that hasn't been tried before, and just might work after all, but only if enough people put in the sweat equity, and are truly dedicated. It is hard, and it is tough. But hey, what have you got to lose but your chains?

Who are the Puerto Ricans? The richest nation on Earth? Of the second class citizen kind? Inferior to others and other peoples? Or are we human beings first and foremost with all the creative energy and beauty, and variety and potential that the word HUMAN means to all of us? Then don't sell our potential and capacity short. And be true to who we are and all will align in the way it has been waiting to do, but not allowed, due to too much interferences by those with less than good intentions towards us. Remember that dicho TipoConSuerte put a thread in open board about? The Road to Hell is paved with Good Intentions. The only intentions that are good are the ones in which self determination is involved. The other intentions are not good. They just aren't.

The rants are usually from the ones who want me to back the system I live in and hate the idea I don't agree to say it is great and good. I won't. It sucks and is bad. So? Others disagree. That is ok. To each their own path must be done.....always. To thine own selves be true.

Go ahead and rant on with your idea of being nationalistic, and pro-capitalism, and competition. All that to me leads to perdition Miranda. That is where I stand. And I got a right to think that way. How you think is your right. Y ya!

Suki

[Suki]

Originally Posted by NelsonN

LOL! If you are a US citizen and can't read, don't blame capitalism! The US has plenty of free education, flawed in my view, but you will definitely learn how to read!

Suki: The free education is it capitalist or not? Lol. The US has some vital key elements of socialism in place for decades already, yes, I agree, seriously flawed, but at least people learn to read. Some of these Nelson are especially with health care and education, if those elements did not exist then I would say it was pure capitalism. The USA tried the 'pure' capitalism and it could not sustain itself. The market crashed in 1929 and they had to re-assess the whole concept of government vs. private industry relationship. If the 'people' did not like it and it wasn't working for them then hey, let all those viejos hoping to cash in on their social security checks and SSI and disability checks and Veteran's benefits checks, and Fire Dept pension checks, and etc. etc. give the money back to the government coffers paid for by millions of workers paying in with their most productive years. That is how it works. It aint free money. It never has been.

The couch potatoes don't even know how to vote and you want them in charge of the country?

Suki: And who do you want Nelson in charge of the country?....a dyslexic president like Bush with lines like "Our Children is learning". I think you don't like Bush at all either! Lol. At this point I think even a couch potato would do a better job than that prez. Lol. At least the couch potato by his or her sheer neutrality would not cause any more disasters and harm than already committed. Ay, Nelson. I think you are in the club of the frustrated out there. And you are not alone at all!

Yeah, I want the couch potatoes in charge of my country, sure. LOL!

You make it sound like everyone strides to be a millionaire. You skew and generalize way, way, way too much!

Suki: Have you been reading Bushisms lately? I don't think people 'stride' ( I think you meant 'strive') to be millionaires. Most people just want what is reasonable. A job with security, and some appreciation for their work. Respect, and a home with the basics and to give a good education to their youth, and take care of their health concerns and have some recreation and to develop their dreams and aspirations in peace and with some choices involved. And that is reasonable. What do I skew and generalize? Tell me what you think I skew and what is generalizing. If you can't tell me what it is that you think I am skewing and generalizing about then how am I then able to explain with greater clarity and depth what I am thinking?


Who do you think I want to be like?

1) A person who makes $400,000 a year, but is $900,000 in debt and can't hardly make ends meet?

or

2) A person making $35,000 a year with $10,000, or less, in debt?


Suki: I assume you want to have NO DEBT. And to have a lot of freedom and enough money to eat and have a roof and maybe accomplish things you want to accomplish. Like most reasonable humans do. Am I right?

Money is not the end game, it is how you live your life that can bring you happiness. I would be one pissed mother if I had a government telling me where I need to work, how much of an education I need, and how and where I will live.

Suki: This government tells you what to do not to serve most working people in the world. But to make themselves richer and more powerful and not serve the people. So, yeah, I think many people in the USA and around the world in general really don't like their governments. Is that new? No.


This is getting to drawn out and it seems that much of your arguments against capitalism are just a hodge podge of arguments you put together from different sources. Whereas I am coming to you from my experiences and what I definitely see as the problem.

Suki: Hodge podge? I like to get my information from clean and varied sources that are well documented and NOT based on sound bites and fast and quick and easy reads of the reader's digest kind. I am not that kind of woman at all. Yes, and I am coming from my experiences and what I see definitely as the PROBLEM. Lol. The only difference is we are not coming from the same 'experiences'? I wonder how many times that has occurred between people on the internet? Millions of times.

I wonder how ahead in the US system you really are. Are you pissed because you haven't been able to create the life you want and are blaming capitalism for it?

Suki: How ahead do you think I should be? Lol. I thought you said that how you live your life is what happiness is all about? And not how much money you make? Or am I wrong? Nelson do you judge people's innate value according to how materially successful they are or not? Capitalism is to blame for my personal unhappiness? Lol. No Nelson, I think my personal life is quite fulfilling and happy. Capitalism and people's personal lives are not all that related in fora discussions. Drug dealers flourish in capitalism does it mean they are unhappy in their personal lives? Ay Nelson. Anyone who questions capitalism who are they? Sour grapes. All they need is to go to Vegas, and gamble and hit the lotto and then they will change their minds? After all, it is the promise of hitting it big that makes it all worth while. All that glitters is not gold. Or so I have heard. You sound like a very, very sincere guy to me Nelson.

I think you will never see that people need to take responsibility, that is what's needed and in my opinion we are farther away from this than you will ever agree.

Suki: On the contrary, in order to be a good member of society TAKING RESPONSIBILITY for it ALL is the first step to significant change that is positive. Living in denial is the worst. Ignoring issues and problems and repressing it all until they fester and explode is AWFUL and the road to hell in my opinion. So, we agree. Taking responsibility is crucial. It always has been. Why would you assume I never thought taking social responsibility is important?

Have you tried talking to today's youth? It's like they are living in a different planet and with an attitude more indifferent than the word can convey. Their attitude is "who cares? I got my friends to hang out with to be paying attention to the news, that doesn't affect me!"

Suki: Have you ever thought that passivity is good for the system to perpetuate itself with. How many passive activities do we engage in this society? Watching television, listening to ipods, surfing websites dedicated to smut and degenerate activities? Etc. Etc. How much power do you think people really feel they have? Or do they feel POWERLESS in general? That is a good question Nelson to ask.

With attitudes like this, which is the prevailing (non)wisdom, those of us with a shred of hope to see changes are in for a very long wait. And this is the danger we all face, while we wait, someone like you may even turn my country into a communist hell hole. Just because people lack a basic understanding of their true power as voting citizens in a free society. This power is something that you lack the potential to see.

Suki: On the contrary having people wake up and take notice and move and get active is what is critical in social progress and change. What is the ability to change if not a certain impetus? Movement and active participation? I am all for active and engaging change. Not passivity. I don't know where I gave you that impression? About communist hell hole. The world is vastly in the Capitalist systems. It is. And it is currently in hellhole status. Iraq and Iran are capitalist nations Nelson. Are they prosperous and free? No? Then obviously capitalism is not one dimensional in the sense of all nations who practice capitalism solve their issues? Why not? The power of the people is what the 'socialists' are all about. Or you never heard that before Nelson? Lol. Ay Nelson, in the end....you believe in people and their people power. So do I. I thought you never thought you and I would agree this much did you?

And if families have it so tough in the US, why is it that in Puerto Rico 4 out of 5 Puerto Ricans own one car, 31% own two cars, 9% own three cars, and 3% percent own four or more cars? And Puerto Rico is poorer than the poorest US state.

Suki: At $3 something a gallon for gas, I wonder how many Puerto Ricans are going to get into further debt than they are already in their guzzlers when Chavez wants to be friends and sell the Ricans gas for $1 buck a gallon but the Gringos say we can't wheel and deal with the Devil in Venezuela LOL!? Making it even harder to get out from under the banks and the credit card people? Who knows? And the ozone layer might be too late to reverse. I wonder how good all those cars are going to feel when half the world has to be treated for skin cancer? Because you own a gas guzzler in an island that is small and overcrowded and you are stuck in a tapon for hours burning precious gas that is expensive, and is not making the future look good either, but no one wants to change their unsustainable ways, until it is too late...and the consequences hit them in the face, right? Human nature waiting for the worst to happen before trying to change? Meanwhile, during rush hour as a bad merengue tune blasts away at you from the titere next to you....I guess you really are superior to all those bicycle-riding, skinny, and backward Cubans in Santiago and Havana, and Dominicans that ride around with oxen and carts in las Alturas de Chabon? Lol. Nelson, I have enjoyed your post. I did.

Suki

I hope you read this and if not....I had fun replying to it. I have to go cook and clean for my family now.