A BLIP, A one liner and an insult.

[Suki]

RPR,
I love depth and deep conversations, unfortunately, many people don't or can't handle it. What to do? All I can do is let people be themselves.

[Sonambulo]

LF lets take a closer look:

Los tres postings anteriores son muy interesantes. Lo que RPR, Sonambulo y Suki estan demonstrando es lo que Juan-Ma llama, en su columna de esta semana, "La violencia simbólica, pero en vez de violencia es "RESISTENCIA"

SONAMBULO NOTES: Vagueness is sometimes used to avoid directness, conflict, or to promote dishonesty. Unclear what the preceding paragraph intended. As for Juan-Ma, he has about as much credibility as Jimmy Baker; you know , Tammy’s ex-husband.

LF does not feel this kind of statement is JUDGEMENTAL:

“Lo contrario a la violencia simbólica es la resistencia, la resistencia a la asimilación cultural. RPR y Sonambulo se refugian en la música Boricua/latina, aparentemente cerrando filas contra la música no latina del mundo exterior. Por lo que yo entiendo, no es que se cierran totalmente, pues tenemos que dar la apariencia que somos "open-minded."

SONAMBULO NOTES: Brother you do not know who I am or what I stand for to make that statement. It is entirely presumptious and cavalier.

Es algo que es dificil de explicar. Es Como cuando los Gringos cruzaban los grandes llanos y hacian círculos de carretas para protegerse de los indios que los atacaban. LOL Tenian razón pues si no hacian los círculos los indios les hubieran "limpiao el pico."

SONAMBULO NOTES: No one wants to die in a hostile environment; even if they are the alleged cause of the hostility. Mohatma Ghandi said if you enemy strikes you turn the other cheek; THEN they punched him with the other fist. {I dont subscribe to that hegemony] If you know the “indians” are looking to kill you, you take cover. You don’t go into the projects without SOME KIND of weapon do you?.

Por otro lado, Suki se aferra a su gente. Según ella, somos los mas lindos que hay este planeta. LOL Como si en Puerto Rico no hay miles y miles de feos, antipáticos y Come Mierdas que hacen a "Betty la Fea" una Miss Universo. LOL

SONAMBULO NOTES: Tell us something we do not know. Comemierdas can be found in caves. But it seems to me that this board has a goal of uplifting our own; at least that is what I thought. In the context that we are speaking it sounds like you have a negative view of Puerto Ricans for a guy who is quoting Juan Mari Bra, if that is who you seem to be quoting.

No obstante, La resistencia simbólica es, segun Juan-Ma, lo que nos ha salvado de desaparecer.

SONAMBULO NOTES: Nunca existio una conspiracion para liquidar a nuestra gente. Eso es un concepto inventado por los socialistas e independentistas [como era yo ante] para comerle o lavarle el cerebro a los que escuchen.

El problema es que nos encerramos en un mundo insular, donde sospechamos de todo lo que no nos parezca Puertorriqueño, "whatever that means." Nos hundimos en una visión estrecha del mundo, que a la larga nos divorcia de las corrientes culturales mundiales.

SONAMBULO NOTES: With all due respect, SCREW the culturas mudiales. There is no "MOSAIC OR MULTI CULTURAL TAPESTRY" in the US; what we have is a slowly boiling cauldron in this society that can explode when we are not careful to maintain stability in our environs. The culturas mundiales, or more specifically, the foreigners that represent them, are bringing a host of problems in Puerto Rico and to this country, in general, and are taking jobs away from black and latino workers and producing a host of other problems in the medical, educational, and justice institutions. There is nothing abstract about this and the problems that a lot of foreigners bring are not an abstract concept or a college educational exchange that produces mutual scholarly benefit like so many liberals what the rest of the country to think.

A COUPLE OF MORE POINTS:

SONAMBULO SAID:

"I am also wise enough to understand that I cannot control who, for example, my children will marry. I hope to encourage them to bring home a good boricua woman through appreciation of their ethnic heritage and culture."

LF SAID:

May I add, your kids should bring home a person who respects them. As we all know Boricuas come in all forms and styles. Being Boricua does not guarantee virtue. The worse that can happen is that one of your kids gets stuck with a Boricua lemon, and then what?

If YOU re read the paragraph I qualified my point by speaking of the FREE WILL we all have. NOTHING guarantees virtue. NOTHING guarantess anything for that matter. We all take a chance on life the moment we walk out our doors in the morning. This is not an epiphany to most. The issue is what we do with what we encounter, based on all of our life learnings, experience, and the conditions at the time.

I prefer BORICUAS over others in my life. If you take issue with I think many would like you to articulate why.

And finally Sonambulo said:

"As I have said before this forum, and the internet in general, is a medium of entertainment for me. It is really too impersonal to have the type of deep sincere and serious conversations that some of these topics call for. When you try to get too deep into topics people are quick to become indignant, standoffish and even personally critical. Something that would not happen when you discuss things in person."

Why Sonambulo, you must have come in just recently into this conversation. I've been telling Suki this for a long time. However in the modern world serious one to one conversations are going the way of the DO Do Bird. We are stuck with the web or paying a high priced shrink to listen to us. It's sad.

RESPONSE: I really no longer use the web that much to discuss much of anything anymore. As I implied, there is very little scholarly exchange going on in the internet. And, yes, the DODO birds of the “modern world” are now using the web to ANONYMOUSLY and COWARDLY attack and disgrace one another. Im too old and tired for that nonsense. Finally, I saw you were having an exchange with Suki but I was specifically responding to you. You did mention my name, did you not?

Anyhow it was nice writing to a fellow Boricua.

False pleasantries after insolence only encourage further discord and not further understanding.

JUDGEMENTAL- yeah maybe; just like the rest of you, but why mince words?.

[L_F_Miranda]

Sonambulo:

Sorry if you take these postings personally. In fact your reaction borders on hostility. Nonetheless its intellectually healthy to have these encounters.

Like I've said in many postings, We Puerto Ricans live in two parallel cultures, one from the mainland and another from the island. Some mainland Ricans are within the progressive camp, once described a Communists, but we should all know by now that active Communists are a dying breed since 1989. The new ones have transformed themselves into environmentalists and fighting against Globalization.

The other set of Stateside Ricans are either stupidly conservative, like Another Rican, or those who retreat into their culture, but being very politically conservative, having internalized American exceptionalism 100% or large parts of it.

Different from you, Yes I think tribes disappear. I see world cultures as tribes, some are trying to survive, Palestineans, others are on the way out, Hawaiians. Its the natural course of human progress, the weak ones fizzle out.

Juan-Ma only pointed out that we are RESISTING. Its the story of our nationality throughout the XX century. Why do you think we are so paranoid of loosing Spanish? Its the center of our identity!

Most Ricans in the states have already lost this aspect. Therefore they RESIST with other forms. Many surround themselves with other Ricans, forming enclaves, a.k.a. Ghettos. We tend to stick to the folkloric aspects of our culture, like music, intermarriage and being suspicious of those who try to penetrate the covered wagon camp mentality. Hey if it worked for the Jews, why not for us!

Ricans of Puerto Rico are less concerned with folklore but much concerned with language and the colonial system. Nuyoricans are disliked because many are seen as agents of colonization and a vanguard of cultural destruction, destroying what we've tried to conserve for 109 years. Yes we are PARANOID!

No Sonambulo, the web is not necessarily for light subjects, one can go as deep as one wants.

After all, what we're having here is an exchange of ideas, no need to get hostile.

[Sonambulo]

No hostility here bro; just some frank, straight with no chaser talk.

Im a lover not a hater. lol

[Yujike]

Well, Don Miranda, count me out of your description of "stateside puertorricans", none of it describes my situation nor my family. I don't know were you cook your stereotypes but they do not meet my reality. You have been reading "La carreta" or "La charca" too many times over and you are fixated on the "e~angotao" era, or La Pava te comio el cerebro, who knows or care. Not a hostile retort, just clarifying.

[Suki]

Miranda, I have to say that you do like to stereotype or typecast people with labels that don't apply to them. The part in which you wrote that my family for example were 'resigned' and so on and did not care about my education was kind of offensive. At least for me. Sonambulo doesn't like the 'labels' and Yujike doesn't either. The truth is very few people in general fall into 'categories'. People are more complex than many think or want to think they are.

Sure there are stereotypes out there. But, I tell you from a place of experience. When you scratch the surface of most human beings, they will have things about them that break some predictable mold or category. I have met very conservative Gay Republicans who at the same time believe in Workers' Unions and I have met liberals who hate Gay marriage, and it continues forever. You find people who discriminate and are sexist and narrow minded in many political philosophies or religious organizations on the planet. That is just the way it is.

The 'Stateside' Rican category of yours is kind of soft and loose. I would like to add Miranda that the 'lumpen' element in any society is a minority of people. Not the majority. Please remember that when you want to say that people are responsible for their own 'failures'. The majority of people are responsible. If that were not true, no society could function AT ALL.

That said, I hope you don't think anyone is being hostile. I did mention you tend to come across Miranda with assumptions. That is not a good technique. Rather an open question with an invitation to open discussion and sincere social and direct questions are far more polite.

Assumptions and stereotypes of people you have never met on the internet is an invitation to being wrong in the worst way. It reminds me of when posters like AR assume that if you are a 'leftist' woman you are promiscuous, have hair under your armpits and are not in touch with your feminine side and are hurt by men in your life, etc. etc. Those assumptions in my case were completely false. But many think repeating lies and falsehoods somehow makes it the truth. Even when confronted with hard evidence these 'posters' keep living in denial. It is bad. I know at least you have the decency to accept sincere explanations from the people involved in a discussion. Others that want and insist on stereotypes and assumptions even when proven they are not accurate, really are hard to speak to after a while.

Now I am going back to one liners until further notice.

[Suki]

Sonambulo, I want to just respond to your commentary about foreigners that bring a host of problems to the USA etc. The truth is most 'foreigners' whether Muslims, Latin American rural peasants, African immigrants, Asian refugees or whatever all have to make a living and get jobs unless they are rich and educated and those get 'invited' over here and tend to go back home to their countries of origin in which they are the elite.

The USA statistically is going to have a big LOAD of retiring Baby Boomers in the next few years. There won't be enough taxpaying workers to keep the 'boomers' in their social security checks and medicaid and etc. The foreigners no matter how different are going to have to be accepted just to get some kind of labor pool that can pay something to the feds in taxes no matter how small. That is the reality. Latinos and Blacks statistically speaking are low skilled workers and low skilled work is very, very easy to get and hard to stay in for long periods. The working conditions are bad and the pay is inadequate. And this society promotes consumption and living a 'middle' class life. A life you can't live on the low skill wages. Most "Americans" born and raised here don't and refuse to work for minimum wages. The only workers who accept even $8 an hour jobs anymore, are those workers who fall into certain criteria: Recent immigrants with no English and very few alternatives and skills to market themselves with, older workers that many aren't willing to hire anymore due to their 'age' and or 'infirmities' and very young workers, teens who need some pocket money. Adults in their fourties with educations, skills and etc. and who are highly 'employable' don't go for $7-$8 buck an hour jobs. They have families to feed, husbands and wives to help pay the bills with, and better opportunities.

The Latino and Black unskilled workers can always find crap wage jobs. The problem is finding highly paid and highly skilled paid jobs. And any job that is $15 and above is when the GOING GETS TOUGH. Because those are the jobs that people want and need to survive and have a hope in the inferno of being able to save money and move up in the socioeconomic ladder. My rule of thumb is that people start cutting off each others heads for a job when it hits $35k and up a year. And if it is $100k and up a year----you shall see just how tough the head hunt for a job is. The better it pays the more difficult it is to obtain.

Then there are jobs with nice titles that look good on a resume and don't pay much, but the person wants to build up 'experience' in a certain field and might accept a low wage position as long as it has 'salida'. Moving up opportunities. Again, those jobs are competitive as well.

Immigrants are not the problem. The USA has created a society that is labor intense. And many European origin Americans aren't having kids. That is a fact. The future belongs to those willing to work no matter how bad it is, and who reproduce. That they are responsible? Who knows? My son's parents were irresponsible. But they had kids. My son is here. Living his life. The other people might be responsible but if they don't have any kids....they don't leave something for the future. The ideal is that all families be responsible and hard working and have excellent sense of social responsibility. But that is not the case. Families nowadays are divorced, filled with problems and less than ideal conditions. You either analyze why that is. Or you throw your hands up in the air and don't do anything about it.

Asi es la cosa en el capitalismo.