Increíble

[Sonambulo]

Pessimisim is understandable when we look at the Puerto Rican condition; or more precisely the political-legal future of PUerto Rico. One cannot help but question when the promise of a people will be realized and the obstacles that stand in the way be removed. It is very elusive and then one also realizes that the very people who are most affected have no real clue as to what they think this promise should look like.

Left wingers, socialists, communists, anti-gringos, and a slew of others tend to have similar ideas and often gravitate towards ones another in their clamor for independence of some type. In the same vein we see right wingers, ideologues, pro-gringos, and others scream for statehood in some form.

My personal view has been that Puerto Ricans in the island need to focus on more immediate and pressing issues in order to provide form for whatever the eventual outcome of the slow political process that has been forever unfolding in the island. The status argument has been very disruptive and even destructive to social progress in Puerto Rico. No entity or group has been able to get past this issue, as important as it may be.

May the new year bring good things in Puerto Rico.

[Suki]

[size="5"][b][font="Times New Roman"]Sonambulo you don't get it do you? You think Puerto Ricans can 'move' on and make a difference in a society that has not had what it needs in its most essential form to make progress. Why do you think there was no real progress made on political levels at all and consequently on economic levels on crime control and legal levels on etc. levels if you have never been given the real tools and the real power to do it?

If Puerto Ricans truly were economically independent, prosperous, and had a low or non-existent unemployment rate, low crime and high standard of living do you honestly believe they would be speaking English only and be USA dependents? Any nation (take your pick) that has all of the above have never accomplished the prosperity, clout, low crime and strong legal and social controls by being colonies of other nations. NEVER in the history of humanity has that ever happened. All colonial relationships have failed in the annals of history. Do you think Puerto Rico is going to be the exception? I don't think so. It is all a matter of time and circumstances. Palau was once a colony of the USA. They aren't anymore and many economists say that since the pullout Palau is making slow but steady progress on all fronts that they had not been able to accomplish being a dependency.

The problems are the pro-gringos, and the conservative among them who are out for themselves only. And will always be out for themselves. They want to win for themselves, to serve themselves. Not for the best of the nation of Puerto Rico. They will and are sellouts. And so is their agenda. Plus, they lack intelligence. Do you know which is the most educated per capita state of the United States? It is Massachusetts. It has the top rated schools and high schools in the USA. Massachusetts also is the most 'left' leaning of all of the USA states. That is no coincidence. Brutos=Right wing. And that is and always will be true. Very few right wingers are analytical. The few that get close to being truly intelligent are 'mavericks' and 'independent' thinkers anyway on many issues. But the average conservative in the USA is really not high on the intellectual scale. Will they win? Who knows. Being intelligent and analytical is not what composes the 'right stuff' to become President of the USA. It is more about who you know and who with money and power is backing you up. The system is completely broken and has been for a long time. Those who don't recognize that FACT either are less than intelligent.

No nation can move on and make real CHANGE that is tangible without going internal and fixing the foundation of democracy and the balances and imbalances of power. Until those are addressed stagnation is the natural outcome of being colonized. You haven't got that yet Sonambulo? Puerto Rico will never make progress if they don't cope with the lack of power they have on all fronts and the natural corruption and decadence that is the NATURAL outcome of lack of power and rot that is endemic to not being allowed as a nation to call your own shots, determine your own plan and future and be free in every real sense. All you will ever accomplish will be colonial menatalities. And people who are colonized will never be able to take personal responsibilities for anything or anyone. They can't envision anything. They keep looking to the colonizer with power for guidance. If you keep looking outside of what is an innate creative and human quality and not only that, but keep expecting something better from people who don't even see you as humans and EQUAL---you will only perpetuate the problems until there is nothing left of identity, respect, energy, and ability. If allowed to exist too long in that mode......ghost nations (such as destroyed and conquered national identities without any hope of surviving then die off and rot) and that will be the end of Puerto Rico. Native Hawaiians are not the majority in Hawaii. They don't own the best land in Hawaii, they don't control anything of real consequence. They live in poverty and have lost so much. That is and will be Puerto Rico in the future if it doesn't get its independence. A bunch of pidegeon English speaking Puerto Ricans living in the worst parts of Puerto Rico and not controlling anything. The best beaches, properties, jobs and so on will go to the foreigners and the stateside raised USA citizens and the native boricuas will never recover. No Spanish. Nothing. The island will be the 51st state for the benefit of the snowbird wealthy who can buy beachfront property in Isla Verde and environs, all decisions of import made by stateside (most likely wealthy white men), and etc. Huge amounts of poverty dependent on dole Puerto Ricans move to Orlando, Chicago etc. ghettoes where their children assimilate not to become middle class but to be the new inmates of the state run prison systems because their progenitors never had the abilities of self determination and felt and were powerless and unaware. They lost something but they are so far gone they don't even remember what they lost. That is the future of the 51st state if ever it even gets to be realized.

Independent nations are hard and difficult and demanding to cope with. But if one struggles long and hard and works extremely hard and does what is necessary, eventually things evolve. Nobody says it is easy. Life is not easy. Never was it meant to be easy---reminds me of Darwin---struggle for existence is the toughest hurdle of all for survival of the species.

I don't think any self-respecting Puerto Rican really wants to kill the Puerto Rican identity. Its ethos and its essence is uniquely Puerto Rican and not Anglo and not stateside. It is very Latin American that identity and anyone with a sense of history knows that. Statehood will kill it as surely as putting pesticide on an insect. The reason why 80% of Boricuas can't speak English fluently is because the island is physically occupied (very densely I might add) by wall to wall Puerto Ricans, Dominicans and others.Most of whom don't live Anglo lives stateside and whom have no plans on becoming monolingual English speakers. LOL.

[L_F_Miranda]

Suki said:

Meanwhile Miranda, Sonambulo is a statehooder who still thinks somehow that Puerto Rico is not part of Latin America. I have no idea why he feels that is the case.

My take:

To most statehooders, internalizing they are not part of Latin America, and thinking we form part of the folkoric world of ethnicities established by the American system, better rationalizes annexation in their mind.

To many stateside Ricans we are a region of the United States, with our own folkloric ideosyncracy, much like Texas and Hawaii have. The Texans have square dancing, a cowboy culture, even a state flag that's unlike the un-emotional pieces of cloth representing New Jersey or Iowa.

However, the one ingredient which sets us apart, like it or not, is the universal use of the Spanish language on the island. That's the key to our identity, and why die hard statehooders want to dilute it, make sure Gringos don't notice it, or make Gringos think it's transitory. Why? Because it retards our assimilation.

Some statehooders ask, "Why can't we be more like Hawaiians? They gave up their language, but kept their hula-hula dances. Why can't we be more like Jews? They gave up Yiddish to become part of the U.S." The Italians still eat spaguetti and meat balls and the Poles still dance polka. What is wrong with us!

The problem is, we are gung ho on keeping Spanish, in the worst of times, when Americans are gung ho on assimilating Hispanics LINGUISTICALLY!

Statehooders point to the fact that we won't loose everything, after all Nuyoricans only lost the language, even though a great portion still speak it in the form of Spanglish. Statehhoders stress that Ricans under statehood can still eat rice and beans, pasteles, and will be more creative. They point to how living in a State has moved many of us to create our own music styles like Raggaeton, with real Assimilated singers like Daddy Yankee.

[Suki]

Miranda, one thing is living in the USA where English is the dominant language and where in any given situation English is necessary and preferred, and another thing entirely is living in Puerto Rico and everywhere you turn Spanish is dominant and preferred. Puerto Rico is in the top five nations on Earth in population density. It is very hard to fit more people who are of the USA mainland on there. Physically the island is packed to the rafters in terms of population. The population is speaking Spanish all day long, and are Roman Catholics with atleast a third of them possessing African DNA and about 60% percent possessing indigenous DNA. The possibilities of genociding them and making them speak English only and assimilating them on that land that is small, circumscribed and densely populated and island isolated from the larger land mass and repopulating it Hawaii style and or New Mexico style is very slim to none. That is what is problematic.

If one wanted to make it look like a real USA state of the Union---genocide and repopulation would be the best way. The sterilization of Puerto Rican women in the 50's and 60's was one way. But that did not work entirely. Maybe some mass contamination with high cancer rates might work over time...but that affects property and the ability of the superior White people from the USA to occupy all that lovely Caribbean beachfront property....I don't know. They gotta think of something else.

Miranda if you were some rich white Conservative Politician who wanted to make Puerto Rico a state for some solid reason (none of them want to but let us fantasize about this), how would you divise a plan of conquest? I think you might just hit the nail on the head?

[Sonambulo]

I don get what Suki?;That post was mostly bull crap with filler; will you stop making excuses and suggesting that Puerto Ricans are a bunch of impotents incapable of solving their own problems. You speak like the an elitist left winger who thinks that Puerto Ricans in the island need you to go down there and enlighten them about what they need to know. As for your sacred INDEPENDENCE, If it did not happen during the time of Albizu when it had the best chance, it is not going to happen. THAT IS WHAT YOU DO NOT GET. What part of Puerto Rico needs to focus on immediate problems is so hard for you to understand. You and a number of your pals on this forum speak just like angry racists and are very intolerant and reactionary to opposing views. There is no discourse here, on this site, when reason is hijacked by ideologues. Suelten esos demonios antes que les consuman.

[Suki]

Your reaction Sonambulo speaks of your lack of understanding of Puerto Rico's national identity. English and assimilation have been tried for a long, long time on the Puerto Ricans. The island residing ones still speak Spanish---despite it all. Why?

Why do they keep speaking Spanish? That is the key to our national identity. Miranda is right. You don't get that. You want what? Puerto Rico to be the 51st state? Why?

Why should we give up wanting an independent nation that reflects who we are inside anyway? The problem is living with contradiction. Being Latin American, speaking Spanish---our history----and wanting something from the Colonizer nation that the colonizer nation refuses to give us---equality, justice and power. I have never been an elitist. I hate ignorance. I do. I hate people who never get an education yet want to say they know and can say something with substance. You can't. If one is ignorant one can't say anything of substance. And I am not talking about self-taught and directed human beings. I am talking about plain ignorant people. People who never made the effort at all to get a real education. Yet, they want to tell others that something is right or wrong. That is not elitist. That is the truth. If you never study and EXPERIENCE Puerto Rican society and history yet want to say this or that....it won't wash.

I refuse to think your way Sonambulo. If you ask Miranda he thinks that Puerto Rico has never been in Puerto Ricans hands anyway. I happen to believe that Puerto Ricans can and will affect their own destiny. But, Miranda is more analytical than you are on many issues. He is. One of them is realizing that colonized people are never thought of as agents of creativity, change and activism. That is the horror of many horrors of being in a colonial relationship. And no doubt about it---Puerto Rico is in the colonial relationship. And the USA is being an Empire and totally unfair. ACCEPT it Sonambulo----say---The United States of America (whom I identify with as Sonambulo living in the Garden State) has been totally unfair to Puerto Rico. Say that one hundred times and repeat it...until you get what that means. You still are in some fantasy world about it. You are. Sorry to tell you the truth to your face. But that is what debate is about too.

The new daily affirmative sentence....The United States of America has been totally unfair to Puerto Rico. Now that you accept that.....what does that mean? How does one cope with unfairness and lack of justice and inequality? By giving in? Or by fighting and activism? You tell me Sonambulo. You tell me how one copes with injustice and unfainess? By giving up? Submitting to the higher power and authority? Or by digging down deep and going for 'struggle for existence' that Darwin talks about. Dime. What is your take on unfair and unjust treatment? The Puerto Ricans who are pro-statehood are one of either three things: naive, self-interested, or ignorant. Or all three. Lol. One has to generate debate in this forum. Ave Maria....the bullcrap post is all yours in my opinion.

[Suki]

People speak Spanish in Puerto Rico and live in 90% Hispanic (entre comillas) plus areas in Puerto Rico. Gringos brillan por su ausencia. Puerto Ricans speak Spanish. They do. No one can say they don't. Yet they are USA citizens. Born USA citizens. Yet, they are statutory USA citizens and are subject to having the citizenship revoked or repealed by the USA congress---which they have a representative in but whom can't vote. Is that a bag of crappy contradictions or not? Who decides to let congressional representatives vote in the USA congress and senate? The Puerto Ricans or the USA stateside residents and citizens? Stateside citizens.

Is that a fair state of affairs or does it smell like discrimination and exclusion and shabby treatment to you folks? If it is shabby and discriminatory how does one deal with discrimination, injustice and shabby treatment? By giving up? Saying---haz conmigo lo que quieras? I don't think so.

Again---repeat after me---The United States government has been unfair to the people of Puerto Rico. The United States government has been unfair to the people of Puerto Rico. The United States government has been unfair to the people of Puerto Rico. The United States government has been unfair to the people of Puerto Rico. The United States government has been unfair to the people of Puerto Rico. The United States government has been unfair to the people of Puerto Rico.

Sonambulo, once you truly understand what that means. Then what you suggest to combat that issue will be a good idea and a good thought. If you refuse to accept that the USA gov't has been unfair and you keep wanting Puerto Ricans to accept the unfairness and just go on and make the society better without the tools to do it---you will be guilty of NOT GETTING IT. AT ALL.

You can't say, forget the status issue---concentrate on cleaning the streets, combatting the corruption, catching the criminals and educating the youth, and caring for the sick, and etc. etc. You know Puerto Rico forget about the status---just do the concrete stuff. The concrete stuff is controlled by the absentee landlords with some colonial puppets responding Sonambulo. And the puppeteers behind the curtain don't care about the interests of the islanders they care about their own interests. And until the puppets get swept away and the people of Puerto Rico can no longer function properly in their world that is absent of Gringos---there aint gonna be much action. Punto y se acabo. Many just say---I give up. I will go to the states and leave my family, my culture, my language and my home and give it up. But why do we have to do it Sonambulo why do we have to give up such a beautiful culture, language, home and place just because some puppeteers behind the curtain want to control something that doesn't and hasn't belonged to them? Why should we accept injustice and inequality for the island? Why should we assimilate to the 300 million hodgepodge and forget our roots and leave it for others to fight? Something has to give. And those who have the history of the island in their veins and in their blood and in their land and history should not have to give it up to please some callous colonizer's agendas far, far away.