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[Suki]

No Sonambulo, it is not our 'weak' argumentation. It is your lack of debating strong strong points. You even agreed that the USA is unfair to Puerto Rico. That is fact. So how does one go about dealing with it? To you the solution is integration into the Union and the gov't that came up with the unfairness in the first place. To me that is really weird. It will always be weird to me. What works in history is pressure and advocacy for justice. That works. Being buddies with a government that treats your ethnic group like inferiors is really strange.....What do you want us to think? The USA treated Puerto Rico great and we should be grateful to ________ the USA (fill in the blank government administration) for our daily bread.

Do I respect your 'intellectual' abilities Sonambulo? I don't know them. I wish you would display them more frequently. So far, you just don't. Who do I respect? Everyone. As long as they respect me. You don't. You have not respected me as an individual. You get pissed off when someone challenges your notions about what the USA stands for. For me the USA is human defective greedy Empire that treated the island of Puerto Rico like war booty and crap and has the gall to expect the Puerto Ricans to accept the second class crap status and actually has cheerleaders for them who claim to have Puerto Rican ethnic ancestry like yourself Sonambulo. That is really weird. You don't defend any government that is fundamentally corrupt, hipocritical and unfair.

BTW, Miranda is married to a Jewish lady who is not Anglo unless you think American Jews are Anglo. He also is an independent thinker. Lol. Like you claim to be.

Believe or not Sonambulo I like you. WHY? Because you are an avid salsero lover. And deep in your heart you like Puerto Rican things. I know you do.

[Suki]

Sonambulo you like Jane Mas right? Well why don't you ask her if she thinks my opinion is weak and that I engage in character assassination and your other 'opinions'? I think you will find her answers 'enlightening'. I have strong opinions. That is what you should have. Being weak or undecided or confused on opinions is not only boring but detrimental for this type of communication.

I will interpret your 'running' from the thread as weakness in argumentation. I have debated other people who are highly conservative who are educated and informed, and they don't run and evade. Instead they go for the long haul and at the end of it we both learn from each other. Which is the side bonus of holding on to the exchange. I already know you feel you can't debate for some reason ( I happen to think it is because you are insecure about your less than formal education and not wanting to be seen as a guy who grew up with a lot of street realities and not as much time as he would have liked on 'intellectual' pursuits).

You think I ramble. I think you refuse to accept something very basic. The United States is unfair. That is real politics. Not fantasy. It is real. The USA gov't is fundamentally unfair. And one has to make a decision as a person who accepts that truth. How does one cope with the unfair thing? How does one cope with it? Stand and fight. Or give up and assimilate and let them do what they want and give them the right to believe in their illegitimate claims to the island. Puerto Ricans speak Spanish and are part of Latin America Sonambulo. That is not controversial. That is fact. Can you accept fact? Because if you can't, then what kind of cop are you? A cop that can't accept facts aint a cop. He is a idealogue who hijacks legit threads to suit his own fantasy of what he thinks he knows. It is really weird. That is all.

I bet Sonambulo is going to vote for Ron Paul. That dude hates having the gov't interfere and get in other countries business....if he were in charge Sonambulo, I bet Puerto Rico would be cut loose. Vote for him. He's your kind of Republican. Sonambulo votes liberal and Democratic locally and most probably conservative in national elections. Both parties are the same anyway. Both are part of of a broken system.

Your opinion is informed and educated and takes into account the unfairness factor? Yes or no? If you just say the USA screwed over the island and then explain why statehood is supposed to recify this problem and make it convincing to others who read out there in internetland you would have done your duty on the forum. If you just want to say me and my supposed pals are wrong and I am totally weak and wrong and don't know how to debate and all that jazz.....I will think "Dude is insecure and can't come up with a counterpoint'. Asi es la cosa. BTW Miranda have you seen "The Great Debaters" in the movie theaters. I don't know, it has gotten bad reviews. Too predictable. There you go---if one is too predictable in art and in life it means you aren't learning anything really new. Don't you want to learn something new?

[RPR]

Well its nice to see that someone got the fire in their belly again. Just like that tiger is San Diego,they are out for the kill lol.I came to the conclusion long ago that it takes two to tango. Its been a two way street no matter how unfair you think that exchange has been. If we were truy enslaved as some would want us to believe,our revolution would have happened ages ago.

The reality is that we have benefited from an infrastructure unmatched in Latin America. Have anyone of you even visited PR lately? San Juan rivals Miami and far exceeds it in beauty. Not just SJ but Ponce,Caguas (with its stunning backdrop of the mountains of Agua Buena). You would see a PR that is very developed. That can't be deny....that is the problem with most of the people tha argue for independence,. They are negative in nature and bring forth negative reaction to their ideals. They are also not honest in their disposition....and no matter how "ignorant" you think a people are they will always see throught the bs.......actions not words.

This is what I believe- We the Puerto Rican people have the inalienable right to govern ourselves and to create our own laws without subjugation from any foreign body.

Has anyone read the news lately? I know all of you have because.well...I just know...AAV now said that the "federals" shoulsd not have so much power in Puerto Rico. Oh really?

[Suki]

RPR do you honestly believe a government that makes the taxpayer pay penalties if they are late in paying their taxes yet if they are late in paying the taxpayer refuses to pay taxes will be investing in Puerto Rican infrastructure for the exclusive benefit of Puerto Ricans only? No. They invested in Puerto Rico because they wanted Puerto Rico to be up to first world standards in order to run their military bases in the Caribbean basin. That means highways, buildings and etc. Even then the DEA wants Puerto Rico to be a foreign posting because the water service is unpredictable and electricity service is full of brown outs and black outs. There are potholes in the street and schools and hospitals are not up to USA mainland standards. That is a direct quote from a federal agency of the USA. DEA. So---RPR the problem is that YOU have not really thought about what motivates the USA feds to invest in Puerto Rico. Are you assuming they do it cuz they want to help out the local Puerto Ricans out of the goodness of their hearts or because their multi-billion dollar military apparatus used to be there and their pharmaceutical companies, banks, and etc. had to do business there and they needed an outpost for their geo-political agenda in the Caribbean region and Latin America. You tell me why if you are a gov't that does what I stated in my first sentence in this post, what might motivate you to find federal funds for Puerto Rican infrastructure?

Why did they choose Puerto Rico for unincorporated territory status why RPR? Why not Cuba and the Phillipines whom they took from Spain in 1898 as war booty as well, yet did not make it their little backyard? Why didn't they? Think on that. I don't say what I say without substantial research on it. I never have been that way. I hope you start realizing that the independentistas are fiery and are not pro USA because they did their homework, not because they are 'negative'. Besides when you see all the really horrible descriptions in which they continually compare the boricuas to subhumans I hope you start seeing the writing on the wall of what all that means and how one should respond. Not as thinking they did it out of their sentimental love of Puerto Rico. Lol. But out of self interest and EMPIRE building. And that is not something to be grateful for. Because it is not about a relationship based on respect and equality and deep dignity and parity and cooperation. It is based on 'what is in it for me?'

To be colonized RPR is to give credit to only those who are from the outside and to never give credit for anything done well by the natives. And the way you stated your last post it sounds like if it weren't for the USA Puerto Rico would never have accomplished anything. And that is not true and never will be true. Besides Puerto Ricans have paid a high interest for every dollar the American gov't has expended in Puerto Rico. It pays billions in mortgage interest payments a year making banks very rich. It pays high loan interests. It pays taxes via what is consumed. It pays with Puerto Rican men's lives in every stupid war the Empire comes up with. It pays for the 'infrastructure' in innumerable ways. And frankly just how high falutin' should be the Puerto Rican Caribbean lifestyle? In order to be happy on a tropical island do you need the lastest IPOD and the BMW and the designer clothes and the mainland rich and spoiled Paris Hilton lifestyle in order to be content? Because if the Puerto Rican people need that to be happy. They will find that what truly counts are the human relationships one has, family, history, tradition, creativity, sense of dignity, respect, community and giving to others and serving those in need and accepting who we are as a nation with a long history of honesty and humility. That is who we are in essence. If we lose that---who gives a damn how pretty the infrastructure and malls are? I would not give one damn about that. If the Puerto Rican people lose their Puerto Ricaness and become Paris Hilton clones. Who cares about the independence movement. They chose the path of no return. That lifestyle is unsustainable anyway.

I am glad you are participating RPR.

The way the economy is in Puerto Rico the only ones driving around in expensive European luxury vehicles and living in penthouses and flashiness most probably are dealing drugs. Lol. That is how bad the economy is for the average regular working boricua who is not some politician on the make or living off the dole or dealing drugs. I think Miranda thinks that is what the modern Puerto Rican values nowadays. Consumerism and decadence. If Miranda is right, and unfortunately he might be right about a fundamental shift in values----then Puerto Rico doesn't deserve its independence. It deserves to consume, consume, be further in debt, have corrupt lying politicians in power and be the servant and plaything of some racist foreign gov't who will plot to slowly use and pollute the island and finally pull the plug economically and leave her to chaos, ruin, anarchy and death. Any nation whose people value crap and consumption and pretentious and empty ostentation and superficial cafreria over respect, dignity, hard work and spirituality and service and sense of community doesn't deserve a future. And that is the HONEST TRUTH OF IT.

[RPR]

Suki said:

To be colonized RPR is to give credit to only those who are from the outside and to never give credit for anything done well by the natives. And the way you stated your last post it sounds like if it weren't for the USA Puerto Rico would never have accomplished anything.

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion from my statement that we have benefited because of the infrastructure. Your intepretation is more in line with popular Latin American belief. Which is just plain sour grapes on their part. No Suki, I am not like your average statehooder or Puerto Rican for that matter who feels we would "die" without support from the US. The rest of your post is based on your incorrect assumption that I am not aware of the hefty price we have paid for our colonial relationship. I assure you that I am. The fact remains that we have benefited from the infrastrucure irregardless of the motivation behind it all. The day we gain our independence this is not going to disappear. It will be there for us to build upon on. That would be our first true test as a sovereign nation.

Suki said:

And frankly just how high falutin' should be the Puerto Rican Caribbean lifestyle? In order to be happy on a tropical island do you need the lastest IPOD and the BMW and the designer clothes and the mainland rich and spoiled Paris Hilton lifestyle in order to be content?


To each is own. I don't expect them to be on the beach all day for entertainment. There should be a choice though. I hope that your ideal of a free Puerto Rico is not one where there would be no access to consumer goods or some sort of society where the government decides who should own what. That would not be in the best interest for our island. Every generation dreams of being better off that the previous one so I don't expect there to be a large segment that would want to go back to the days of washing clothes by the rivers. I am exagerating a bit but you get the idea. When a society is used to a standard of living they don't expect to downgrade to anything lesser. I have met alot of recent arrivals from the island lately and I am always surprised when without hesitation many say they prefer living in the states. Not all but many. I shouldn't be surprised however.There is more economic stabilty in this nation,job security and higher paying wages, lower crime rate and a higher standard of living for the most part. That is really what all human beings look for in life and when your government is not able to provide that then you don't think with your heart. Pa'l Norte it is.

[Suki]

RPR I liked how you answered. When one looks at things internationally and REALISTICALLY one has to realize that not every human being on earth will be able to live the LIFESTYLE of the USA. Even the regular, suburban lifestyle. OXFAM among other sources of studying world hunger and basic resources such as water, and air pollution, etc. all conclude that if India, China, and most of Latin America and Africa and Asia would all have two vehicles, spend gas, consume a la Americana style....there would be really grave consequences. People can desire many things. One can desire to be a billionaire. Less than a thousand human beings are billionaires on Earth vs. 6 billion non-billionaires. Why can't we all be BILLIONAIRES. That is a choice in lifestyle aint it? No, it is not a choice. Not when it represents a tiny fraction of humanity and that tiny fraction has more power than huge tracts of land and dozens of world gov't budgets. That is retrograde thinking. One has to have a sense of being satisfied with something realistic. Period. What is realistic and HUMANE above all else? Making sure babies don't die because they don't have clean water. Making sure the youth got minimal standards of health care and education and that the adults in every nation can sustain their families and themselves without compromising their humanity to do it.

When sex workers in the Red Light District in Calcutta and New Delhi can only offer their children a legacy of sex slavery and indignities, and violence because they are so desperately incapable and poor and live their short lives in degradation and misery and death of the mind and the spirit first and then the body----one has to question if there is a real choice in wanting something at what expense? Because as I was telling my young son this morning that if one wants to accomplish something in life one has to sacrifice something for it. Work, effort, something. And if it comes for free without effort it is usually not worth much anyway. And RPR how many people from other nations who want the American way of living can realistically have it? Do you think 400 million Latin Americans most who live in abject poverty will be taken on by the 50 states and that is how one solves international problems? hello people come to the USA and go for the elusive American Dream. Can't do that. The Americans can't even bring peace to Iraq. For the 94% of humanity that doesn't live in the mainland USA, one has to accept that they have to forge their own dream. The Dominican Dream, The Mexican Dream, The Puerto Rican Dream....etc. Because if they can't the USA can't do it for all of them.

And for many, the American Dream is never realized anyway. Have you ever read Pedro Pietri's "Puerto Rican Obituary"? You should if you haven't read it. It is about just how FALSE that American Dream really can be. The best solution for all the people who can't live under a gov't that is corrupt, and an economy that is collapsed and oppression that is intolerable is to fight. Fight for something better. ANd that happens in the USA and in every nation with HUMAN BEINGS in it. Gotta fight for something better wherever you find yourself. You will be surprised RPR, many people live highly meaningful lives living in the cultures they live in. They just don't like to deal with the really bad situations they find themselves in. But who creates the problems? Other human beings. Usually the selfish ones. That is why I say---you be the change you want to see in the world. Don't wait for someone else to provide the dream for you. Do it for yourself. And do it for your ethnic group....because if you don't do it....who will? Will non-Puerto Ricans really care about the Puerto Rican experience? No. They are too busy dealing with their own reality. That is why colonialism and absentee landlord a la USA won't work in the long run. How can you give the best of what you got to people who's histories you don't share, don't know and who's language you don't speak and who's sense of self determination you don't value? You can't.

You sow what you reap in this world. If you sow inequality what fruit do you expect? It is just a natural law. The Golden Rule is always best. Treat others as you would like to be treated. Would the USA like to have Puerto Rico make the USA Puerto Ricans by default but not let them vote in Puerto Rican elections and every time the Puerto Rican nation goes to war with some other nation recruit USA soldiers to fight and die for Puerto Rico but not allow the Puerto Ricans a senator that can vote in Puerto Rico. To not let the USA make trade agreements with other nations...etc. etc. Palau after obtaining its independence from the USA in 1994 ratified in its constitution no nuclear weapons allowed on its tiny territory (Palau has only 21,000 people) and they believe 100% in democracy. The USA said that they would not allow the Palauans their independence unless they allowed NUKES on their land. The Palauans gave in but fear if there is a leak or something they will have to lose the only land they know. Is that fair? No. Is it the USA way of doing business? Strong arming little nations. Even ones who are very smart!! Lol. It doesn't speak well of the USA.

Don't be naive, self-interested or ignorant. Not everything that is shiny is gold. It could be all an illusion. Most of this pie in the sky stuff is just that. Pies in the sky. What is not pie in the sky? Love. Hard Work. Dedication. Persistence. Preserverance. Embracing Adversity. Struggle. And SACRIFICE. That is what gets people to where they want to go in life. ANYWHERE THEY LIVE IN ALL NATIONS. Not bullcrap invented by some slick ad agencies and promoting a lifestyle that many are abandoning anyway because it is getting unsustainable as practiced.....think forward.

Hope I left you some food for thought RPR

RPR do you honestly think that the USA is the only nation on Earth who can provide a decent living for their citizens? And have you thought about why so many Puerto Ricans leave the island. Why they can't stay? Something aint working. Something wasn't working in Ireland during the Potato Famine, something wasn't working when so many Scots had to leave Scotland, and Jews had to leave and etc. etc. peoples had to leave. Because people are looking for something better and they think they can find it in some UTOPIA. Whether it is called USA, or the promised land. All human beings are essentially the same allover the world. They just need to stop treating the ones who are poor, and illiterate and desperate as if they are pariahs. They aren't. They are YOU and I and all of us. If we can't see our common humanity in other nations and in other peoples then we have to accept that the cause of our search for something better is in vain. We will be playing musical chairs as Miranda stated in the Immigration Issue thread....until we sit down and realize, let us respect all nations. All people. And let us give them a life of dignity. Not a life of ostentation and opulence. But of human dignity. Let us stop being unrealistic and fantasizers and LIARS to ourselves. We have to set limits and know the differences between legitimate needs and childish wants. We have to stop being children in terms of our desires as a species. We must become adults. Parents. As a parent I am going to give my child what he needs. Not necessarily what he or she wants. He might want shiny toys and instant gratification, but what he needs are patience, skill, and the tools for survival and the means to thrive.

A drug addict might want a drug. Is it what he wants more important than what he needs? He needs to stop the addiction and start resisting the wants. He needs support and help. He needs to fight realistically one day at a time till he regains his self control and his self respect. It is the same with consumerism and wanting what is unsustainable and doesn't bring long term happiness anyway. Todos vamos al mismo sitio en este mundo. Tanta vanidad tanta hipocresia todo para acabar en una tumba fria. Life is ephimeral and very precious. Why waste it on vanities? I want health care, education, housing, good employment and dignity for ALL. For all. Not just a few lucky percentages of humanity. But to be inclusive one has to stop wanting more than what is realistic for all. And that is what I believe RPR. Thanks for listening to me.

[L_F_Miranda]

Suki, RPR, Sonambulo, etc. etc.

To discuss the pros and cons of the American century is an exercise in sterile bla, bla, bla. However we must keep the forum going, don't we?

I was surprised Sonambulo got so upset at others vociferously and passionately challenging his assuptions, his World view. RPR got tiffed by my saying he doesn't know whether he's coming or going, but at least that put a "petardo in his fondillo." LOL

But hey look at this another way, wouldn't it be boring just to be reading the likes of Faraon and the statehoood conservatives over and over till we want to puke or just plain drop out? LOL

Yes, we can critisize and SHOULD critisize this or that, after all that's how its been since day one. However what we must not fail to recognize is that History moves on and CHANGES will come no matter what. These changes might satisfy some and not others.

We here are reacting to the American Empire and its cultural reach, much like folks reacted to the British and the French at the height of their imperial power. Remember when French was the language of Diplomacy? Now it's English.

Each Empire brought with it material progress despite that some of the natives in the colonies bad mouthed changing, letrines for toilets with running water, "carretas de bueyes" for cars that pollute the environment and turning a hand to mouth feeding cycle for well stocked super markets, rinky dink bodegas and even available soup kitchens.

Real famine is a thing of the past except for hold outs like Darfur, Haiti, and one or two other places, mostly in Africa south of the Sahara.

We live in a consumerist age, fueled by the American Empire. We Puerto Ricans are highly influenced by this frenzy of spending and buying junk to satisfy our empty lives. We will fight tooth and nail to keep this life, as shown by our collective reluctance to break ties with the Gringo Empire. Why? It guarantees our shallow form of life. This consumer frenzy is also fueling mass immigration. Its all about moving from one place to another to join those Consuming at the 99 cent stores. LOL How do I know? Look at the faces of whose buying at the stores these days. its mostly obese immigrants with obese kids.

I've gotten to the point of just trying to understand it and hope change will come in my life time, but I won't hold my breath.