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[Suki]

Ay Miranda, I don't think a Puerto Rican life is an empty life. It is all on how we perceive things anyway. And what choices we make in this life. If you choose emptiness and 99 cent Walmart over something more substantive then that is your choice and it is also your consequence. People choose their states of consciousness. I firmly believe that.

For RPR, Pedro Pietri's poem written a long time ago in 1973 but still relevant to many immigrant experiences in the USA. If you read it you will find it funny and sad at the same time.

Reverendo Pedro Pietri - Puerto Rican Obituary (1973)

[L_F_Miranda]

Yes Suki, people DO choose their states of consciousness, but they do so from, what I consider, very narrow choices, a limited menu.

Things have gotten worse in this sense for us on the island.

I remember when "EL VIAJE UNIVERSITARIO A EUROPA DE LA UPR" was the trip of a life time for students, today it's "EL VIAJE A DISNEY."

Its all a matter of perception too.

While no self respecting upper middle class matron in the U.S.A. would find a trip to shop at K-Mart as an "experience of a life time", In Puerto Rico, at the uppity Monte Hiedra shopping mall, Upper class matrons spit and punch each others faces attacking the sales of Chinese "Chatskas" ( Yiddish for junk) at K-Mart, Marshals or Wal-Mart. Go figure..........LOL

While upper middle class Gringos are expanding their horizons and visiting Tibet,Vietnam or Yemen, upper middle class Ricans are visiting Las Vegas, Branson Mo. and attacking the buffets on the crusie ships, like if there were no tomorrow.

Yes its all a matter of perceptions. LOL

[Sonambulo]

Hey Miranda- speak for yourself. Your commentary painted Puerto Ricans with a wide brush and made very negative generalizations about Puerto Ricans. Now we are all intelligent on this board and many of us have undergraduates and/or graduate degrees [which are sometimes no reflection that someone has common sense, a measure of dignity, or compassion] and most of us have spent a lifetime studying the situation in Puerto Rico and the conditions of Puerto Ricans in the U.S. Now while we may not have come as far as some would expect we have also attained a huge measure of success in Puerto Rico and the mainland. Probably more than most here, I have reason to see things negatively after having dealt with thousands of criminal defendants since I started in the criminal justice profession, including hundreds of Puerto Ricans from all walks of life. Yet I know that these Puerto Ricans are the MINORITY, and a large percentage of these offenders are victims of circumstances. The island I was born in is if full of dignified, positive, educated people, who care about what happens in their meaningful lives and work hard to make those lives productive. I will not accept that something other than this is the case.

I largely disagree with you and Suki because I have equally strong opinions as both of you. The arguments here probably have more to do with our personality conflicts than with actual substance because when you carefully read some of the exchanges, the base of the arguments are often actually in agreement, it is more form and approach that differs. The the bases differ people often allow their passions to overcome their reason. This being said, I try hard to be reasonable and responsive in my posting, but when I believe that exchanges come to an impasse I sometimes opt to step back rather then get into futile exchanges because they tend to degenerate into personal mud slinging. I have experienced this on this forum and on almost every other forum that I have visited on the internet, and certainly, I am not alone in this experience. These conflicts have clearly been to the detriment of this forum as we have seen people drop out of the forum, sometimes not to return.

The question then becomes, what is the purpose of this forum?. While I understand that it was probably founded for productive exchanges, for this forum to endure, personalities, egos, and prejudices need to be checked at the browser portal. This is what is what has been eroding this forum now for an extended period.

[RPR]

Suki, that is a gem of a poem that Pietri wrote. The way he vivvidly potray the lifes of the Puerto Rican in those times comes off very sincere and you feel like you know or have known any of these characters. See, I could appreciate his poesy for what I think it is: A picture in time of our social condition in this country. I still come to the same conclusion as I did back when I first read it. However,that is not our current state and to think otherwise is to do a diservice to those Puerto Rican who truly were discriminated and never stood a fair chance to move forward in life. If you change a few lines here and there from the poem, you will see that this is not much different than the experiences of previous immigrants. The irony is that we were already citizens but even we are not unique in that respect. If you look at the black experience. At least we came willingly. Of course, one can argue that if it wasn't for our colonial status and the likes of "operation bootstrap" then we would have not been here in the same masses. I for one think that if it weren't for 9/11, there would have been more perceived "anti American" ruckus on the island and who knows how further we would be in our quest for independence.

The only problem is you can't get into the "what ifs" with history. It is written and second guessing it makes one a revisionist of some sort. All you can do is learn and try to apply the lessons for the future. I hate to win by default but this is the most likely scenario to me at least. All others scenarios are not likely. I don't expect Puerto Ricans to wake up tomorrow and decide to break free of the rampant consumerism,and the billions of dollars of pork that comes our way and demand independence. Not likely either, that they will want to live a higher sense of purpose and go pick the coffee beans to help the newly form republic. I woudn't want to pick coffee beans either lol. I think the independence party has to change their plaform with the Puerto Rican people but that is another subject. Its been 40 yrs of a downhill slide in regards with voters.With no change in strategy!

[L_F_Miranda]

RPR

One of the flaws of "Puerto Rican Think" is that it's directed inwards. Maybe its a normal human characteristic, that destiny is in our hands. Maybe the problem has been that we've internalized what we've learned in American Government 101 and Democracy 101 in High School? Maybe we haven't learned to understand the nuances of how the world REALLY WORKS?

My two cents.

I think the world of colonials a.k.a. dependent people, is always missing the complete picture. We really don't decide much. We exist within the whims and interests of the Metropolis, despite what majorities in the colony want. If our aspirations fall within the scheme of the metrolpolis, so be it, if not, we are in deep trouble.

Its sad, even fatalistic to think this way, some might say pessimistic, but I see it as political reality. Some out there also might call it Real Politiks.

If we take a stroll through Puerto Rican blogs and forums, there is a constant "Dime y Direte" centered on our status choices. Its Strange, but no one ever touches on, or even speculates, on what might be the interests of Americans towards us, specially after 1989, when Communism began to collapse. Many of us are still thinking in terms of evil empires, Communism, Fidel Castro and invasions from rinky dink islamo-facist 12th century rag heads.

In the mean time, we've stood passively by as the Navy dismantled its S.A.C bases and left Vieques, once called the crowning Jewel of American defense. We haven't got a clue why they left, no one talks about that. We haven't figured out why federal institutions have discredited statehoders and PPD, the only friends Gringos had on the island during the Cold War. We were overjoyed and confused when presidential studies have declared us officially an un-incorporated territory, a.k.a. colony. We've tended to dismiss the recent controversy on immigration, and how all presidential candidates have stressed assimilation for immigrants, meaning, Learn English! We haven't got a clue on how all of this has anything to do with us or affects our future.

On the island they say, that's not for us because we already are American citizens, "allá esos imigrantes."

How does all this affect us? Duhhhhhhhhhhhhh Nobody knows or cares. If they did, they sure are quiet! I guess Its easier to continue with the sterile status debate and OUR choices, then follow up with the weekly sales at Wal-Mart.

Although I do understand that trying to figure out Gringo intentions towards us is frustrating, just speculation, but isn't the continous "Dime y Diretes" on status choices the same thing?

I think we should concentrate our energies, not on what we want, but on how we fit into the political paradigams established by the end of the Cold War, and the new re-nationalization of the United States.

But maybe that's too complex, therefore we might as well continue with the "safe arguments" of what WE WANT and forget other painful realities.

[Suki]

Interesting RPR that you stated that we came willingly. Most immigrants leave their native societies due to pressures of some sort. Whether economic, social or political or religious pressures from the greater society---how much choice and free will (without artificially created pressures to leave the native society) is very debatable.

Yesterday was my birthday RPR. I just turned 42 years old. Birthdays make you reflect on the past and the present too. My husband gave me a birthday present. A book that I have been dying to read for a while but was too worried about our family budget to spend money on. And it is a relatively inexpensive book. It is called "The Varieties of Scientific Experience A Personal View of the Search for God" by Carl Sagan. In it Sagan's Gifford Lectures at the University of Glasgow in Scotland are reproduced. It is interesting that the question of how politics and governments came up in his lectures. Sagan believed in carrying a "Baloney Detecting Kit" by each citizen. He also basically said that governments lie in general and it is the responsibility of the public to keep the pressure on them. He also believes that nuclear war is a real and heavy threat to the survival of the human species. And he offers a simple yet powerful solution. Practice the GOLDEN RULE. Treat other nations, peoples, and governments as you would like to be treated. And then the nuclear 'threat' of mutual destruction is going to be ameliorated or hopefully eliminated alltogether. Because if we don't, and we CHOOSE to be supremely selfish, and believe in destruction as a great way and basically the only way of keeping peace we are doomed. And he is absolutely correct. He also stated that contradiction between what it said and what is actually done is something that must be constantly brought into the open in order to deal with things in a logical and mature fashion. That is true as well. I always admired the man he always had a good sense of the big picture in many fields, not just his own incredibly interesting field of science.

He also states in his book through his lectures that extinction is the rule and not the exception. That is also correct. What distinguishes the HOMO SAPIEN species though is the ability to create our own destruction not brought about by nature or by a naturally occuring event such as the extinction of the dinosaurs---but through choosing the path of lack of respect for life in general. And of thinking that the 'other' group of human beings are not to be trusted, and are to be hated, and the only way to control them is through FEAR. That is terroristic. It is. And so it should not come as a surprise that 'terror' is going to be the theme of this twenty-first century. How to overcome, fear and terror and start investing in peace, and in life instead. Because if Nuclear War is allowed to occur in life all the struggles and the efforts and the advances and the supposed 'attachments' to the great supposed convenient and rich lifestyle we are so accustomed to will be vaporized in an instant. And that is the truth.

I hope you get to read the book. It is published in paperback form by Penguin Books. Did you know Puerto Rican scientists participated in the research needed to do Sagan's "Voyager" and many other of his exploration missions? Los puertorriquenos tenemos gente muy buena y muy inteligente---let us use that to our advantage. To reaffirm life. Not death. Sagan never dedicated his time and great talents to killing instruments. But to adventure, exploration and knowledge. A truly productive life indeed.

RPR liked the poem by Pietri. I knew he would. It is a great little piece of literature.

Miranda, yes, you are right. Many Puerto Ricans don't want to face up to the pain of who we are. A small nation with a limited menu of choices. But, I happen to think that small nations who are united in purpose and in intent accomplish great things....if the Puerto Ricans ever decide to unite and to be purposeful in their goals as a people. NOTHING WILL STOP US. Nothing. That too is a natural law.

Sonambulo, sometimes I provoke people (especially strong, healthy relatively young men on this forum), they can take it. They need a push and a challenge at times to get them to give a little bit of time and thought to expressing their opinions on Puerto Rican themes.

Gracias a todos.

Suki.

[Stanley]

For the love of God sometimes Suki gives the impression that we are a bunch of natives in the 1500s wondering if Diego Salcedo will drown in the river.

There is nothing special about americans. We keep talking about “us and them” and somehow ascribe some superiority to the Anglo. When my dad was an enlisted man in the US Army in W.W.II he would help American military officers how to spell in English. In my practice Ivy league trained persons come to me for assistance quite often and I am a graduate from the UPR.

We could have been independent a long time ago. We are not independent because we are weak and as Miranda has implied we support the colony. We are the equivalent of the black Uncle Tom.

Gringos don’t care about us and that is the way it should be. I would not expect them to take our cause in their hands. The Americans treated PR folks like they treated Blacks in the south. So who cares? Did you people expect something different? Do you think the Spaniards would have been nicer? How about the Japanese? Would they have treated us real nice?

The window to be a state is gone. And the window to ask for the republic is also gone. We will achieve our final status when receive the “patá en el culo”.

Consumerism is evil and I long for the days when a child used to come home to play with his next door neighbor rather than to play video games alone in his bedroom.

I long for the days when we had communities and everybody knew the local barber, the doc, the owner of the small grocery store, etc. I lived those days in the 50s and early 60s.

Americans did some good and some bad-------No more no less. No need to be so bitter. In my case they put my mother and all my aunts thru college when they founded the Inter American University in 1912. An American minister gave them scholarships. Not all Americans that came to the island were evil. Some founded hospitals and took care of the poor. You may want to see the collection of PR images in the 1940s taken by these gringos.

My dad lost his dad at age 12 and his mom at age 16. He had no other family and was on his way to an orphanage when he entered the US Army and finally had a good meal as well as the old GI Bill.

OTOH, Americans did experiments on PR folks and used some men in the 65 de Infantería as “carne de cañón” in Korea. Gringos stated that PR soldiers were fierce fighters and not cowards. Others felt we were lower than Italians in the Totem Pole. Who cares?

In the end we are in dire straits because we don’t have enough folks like Suki and Miranda in the island. We mostly have people that want to live “del cuento”.

It is our fault Suki. Trying to blame who we are on someone else does not work for me.