We need more Statehooders..

[Leticia_g]

It is my understanding from my upbringing in New York, yet I may be wrong, that the term "Jerky People" is used to describe a person that isn't steadfast or levelheaded. I am not sure if that was the connotion used by Phil. The term,"Masturbation" in my book should not have been used in any context because words can be very misleading.

I think that definitely there has been a misunderstanding because of the language barrier. Phil does not have the habit of attacking any individual except politically because he is trying to grasp a lot from our culture.

I think that bygone should be bygones. Let's leave it as such and hope that it does not continue.

Much respect always!

[Nacionalista]

Originally posted by Leticia_g
With all due respect, the only reason I could see the need for statehooders is to have a good discussion and maybe enlighten them in the right direction. If not for those reasons, I really can't see the validity in it. It is always good to see others points of view, compare them and know where we stand. It is also good to know our enemies because only by knowing them, can we be prepared for their attack.

Much respect!

That is right!!

We need more estadistas and populares to spice up the discussions.

Also we need that SOME pro-independencia members be more mature and serious about Puerto Rico politics.

I notice the few open minded estadistas left because they could not find an open minded independentista.

C'mon people, let's share our thoughts but don't cut each other heads off. Attack the opinion but respect the individual.

We all brothers and sisters.

[Guaili-Cayniabon]

Originally posted by Nacionalista
That is right!!

We need more estadistas and populares to spice up the discussions.

Also we need that SOME pro-independencia members be more mature and serious about Puerto Rico politics.

I notice the few open minded estadistas left because they could not find an open minded independentista.

C'mon people, let's share our thoughts but don't cut each other heads off. Attack the opinion but respect the individual.

We all brothers and sisters.

[i]Nacionalista:

I completely agree with you 100%. At another forum in which I participate and I've been a member for over 2 years they have Independentistas, Autonomistas, Anexionistas, Socialistas, de todo un poco, they have members there from just about every political party you can think of. The forum is completely in spanish and for that invites many other latin nationalities to participate. There is a wide range of opinions that gives a very nice flavor to the website and I like it very much. I try to promote this forum -puertorico.com, because when I first dropped in here I saw that there were many individuals uneducated about many things, acerca de la puertorriqueñidad. The other forum is composed of about 95% of the members are on the Island, here in this forum it is the other way around, it's probably about 5% from the Island. In the other forum people are way more knowledgeable on issues and subjects that relate to Puerto Rico. So here in this forum I can really see the things that some members say about the "Barrier" and that certain things they feel it's harder for them to be exposed to. In that sense, it is a fact that Puerto Ricans who were born and raised in the states (the majority of the time though there are many exceptions of those of have exceled and did not let anything hold them back from learning everything possible about there culture) usually don't know the sum of knowledge that a Puerto Rican born and raised on the Island will know. This is one of the major effects I believe of colonialism, its effect on our culture and our people and the exposure to occidental things and the limitation on Puerto Rican things, thus the effect of assimilation or in better words "Americanization". This forum is very "Americanizao" and we all know this is a fact. What I have tried to do since coming here and Leticia has in the past acredited me for it, is "Puertorriqueñizar" (nueva palabra) this forum.

Basically, will the mentality between the Puerto Ricans in this forum be the same ever as the Puerto Ricans in the other forum? Probably never. It all comes down to I guess environment and everyday to day life. For instance, I've noticed between that forum and this one, here the majority of things discussed are more history, I believe for the reasons that even if a Puerto Rican didn't grow up on the Island he can always catch up and study and learn about what happend. In the other forum, history is not that vibrant a subject because it's very plaid out (like water under the bridge in the sense that everyone knows it's there and has seen it), kind of like how in the states I've noticed they really really like old salsa, but in Puerto Rico most times they like to listen to the up to date stuff because they've already had such an exposure to the older salsa songs that they became "latosa" because they've heard them over a billion times already, so in the other forum they usually tend to stick to more current event politics, and things that are in development or process for the future, things like the situation with the TU ~ Tren Urbano, the construction development plans in the area of Piñones, I mean these may not be things that are very interesting to Puerto Ricans who live in the states but they are very important issues on the Island that allow a Puerto Rican to be at one with his culture and have self identity. They discuss things that are going on in the University's, I mean "La Festival de la Calle de San Sebastian" which is just about the biggest event in Puerto Rico was not even talked about in this forum, I posted something on it and people really didn't seem to care. In the other forum they talked about it for a month before and a couple of weeks after it pasted. "Día de los Tres Reyes", another subject that didn't even really come up in this forum. The thing is, is that a fact is here in this forum many Puerto Ricans do not or are not familiar nor want to familiarize with Puerto Rican culture. When have any of the State Hooders in this forum who have all been stateside residents ever pushed or promoted "Puertorriqueñidad" and emphasized identity with being Puerto Rican as much as I have or at all for that matter -NEVER. In the other forum even the Statehooders there push Puertorriqueñidad. You can see them argueing in one thread with an Independentista and in another thread that talked about Puerto Rican heritage, you'd think they were best friends. Well, the closed level of cultural identity here in this forum and its participants is another effect I believe of colonialization. I deeply feel that my people here are at need and need some cultural drowning to find some cultural identity within themselves. I think you can understand me, after all you do call yourself "Nacionalista".

Now about the "open mindedness", I do admit that I've attacked statehood relentlessly here on this forum, I will recognize that there are different forum rules here than in the other forum (which is like a war zone but it's real fun) and I will say that, either way, plain and simple if someone does not offend me PERSONALLY I will not do it to them. For example, if they want to bash Independence, or figures that represent that movement, or they want to make foul comments on ideologies and plans that are within the movement or history that took place, fine, I have no problem with that, but when they say I'm ignorant for thinking the way I think because it is different then their thoughts then what am I supposed to say. For those reasons I throw around, rahter back as a response "Sangano" "Tonto" and all that. I know 2 wrongs does not make a right, but to me it makes a standard. You respect me, I'll respect you, If you don't respect me, I wont respect you even worse. If you hear me calling one of them something like "a silly little assimilated loyalist bujwazi dancing puppet" it's because they've thrown false insinuations and have called me a "Independentista terrorist" (which I take very personal because of the way Independentistas were prosecuted for false accusations as such) they've thrown "Cuazimoto Comunist" at me, they've ridiculed my taino name, you see, so I attack back. There's no referee's here, so to me, it's like they say in the ring -defend yourself at all times. Then on top of all that, okey, fine we have our differences in thought, fine, but when I attack or argue against statehood I state facts and I go as far as to providing links to websites and references, SOME people on the other hand that are SO-CALLED open minded go and make false comments like -"the independence movement is run with drug money." Then follow it with a whole bunch of immature nonsense, like "so-called picture of Martín and Fidel tongue kissing". If these are so-called open mind statehooders then why do they behave in this manner? I think rather it's us Independentistas who can't seem to find an open-minded statehooder here at puertorico.com. The fact is I would rather debate then go back and forth with the nonsense that people like "El_Jibaro" throw around, but the guy can't ever be serious. I don't expect him to change if he should return, because he was that way before I came. The other thing is to, whenever he sees he is losing an argument or can't counter an issue that is addressed he either invents things and then starts acting immature and adding things like comic strips with false acusations or he just runs away from the thread. Me, if I'm wrong or I don't know something, fine, but that doesn't mean just start acting immature or run and don't answer the way PNP does. I think it looks worse when you don't stay and fight and defend the ideals in which you support or discuss them and try to find a common ground or an understanding as to why a certain issue took place. Nobody is right or knows it all, all the time, that is the whole thing about having a discusion and debating. I have nothing against statehooders or E.L.A's, read this previous post below to AnotherRican (a pro-statehooder)

Originally posted by Guaili-Cayniabon
I know the first thing you thought when you saw this post addressed directly to you, that it was something that was "de mala vaina", pero no es.

Listen, I want it to be clear, that when we address politics and disagree on things, that it's nothing personal. I don't know you, nor do I know how you are as a person. But me, I love everyone. That's me, and I can't change that. My issues are not with you as a person, rather with your political views.

I may say certain things at times, that may make you think at times, that I hate you. But that is false. Hate is not in my power. It is just that, estoy en contra de la Dictadura de la Burguesia. Tu tienes tus pasiones, y yo tengo las mias ¿Tú ves? The love of my God, doesn't permit me to hate. If you believe in a heaven, the way I do, and you believe you will be there one day, then you must accept the reality, that if so, we will be brothers there. There are no enemys in that place.

When we address our ideals, I just want you to know that it's nothing personal. Even though I may say certain things towards you, es solo para joder ¿Tú ves? Como tu me jodes a mi. This forum is just a place to address politics. I hope you see it that way. If you hate me for who I am, and what I believe in, que Dios te perdona. I am not a person of hate. Remember that. Hablando se entiende la gente.

Even if you refuse to admit it, although our ideals may be different, we learn from each other. And I hope to have many more debates of our beliefs.

Cogelo suave,

El Nene de Río Grande

This is the thread link below titled Para Anotherican:
http://www.puertorico.com/forums/sho...?threadid=7899

Now if it is not I who is open minded and it is not in my pasion to be, then why would I make an attempt to be in a sense "diplomatic" about the whole situation and the differences that lay between Independentistas and Anexionistas. I've had debates with Amor_Gonzalez who is an Autonomista and doesn't agree with everything I say and questions the reasons why on somethings so she can see my point of view and why I think and feel the way I do and I can see her views and understand them with her feelings and all. I've had many intelectual debates here with respectable people, but it's that I have a 0 tolerance for disrespect in my direction. My family is originally from Loíza Aldea although I was born and raised in Rio Grande. I was tought to respect others as they respect me, but at the same time if they disrespect me, then defend yourself and give it back to them.

At times there has been an ocasional ignorant individual who has stumbled into puertorico.com and has thrown insults at Puerto Rican's and I have went over board and defended to the extreme, but since returning I have learned that to leave those situations up to the decision of the moderators and the administration.

Yes, true we are all brothers and sisters, but why can't things just be simple QUESTION and ANSWER based on FACT with viable references. If an opinion wants to get mixed in there, sure why not, but it's better to keep those opinions as diagnostic analysis's or extrapilations from the facts that you are placeing an opinion on. If the person I am debating with respects me in that sense that you addressed "brothers and sisters" in which I addressed in the previouly posted by thread above, then I will respect them back. But one they, I believe the word is revert back to name calling and insinuations and false facts, then I will do the same.

I've always felt "each one, teach one" but with respect, or rather the best word I can think of "ALTURA", I don't know how to translate into english, sorry!!!

Anyways, those are my feelings. If anyone can respect them and respect me then I can respect them and provide them the same respect they give me.

Atentamente,

GUAILI a.k.a NENE787

[Guaili-Cayniabon]

Originally posted by conciencia
Compatriota, I do understand your point and resolve. I do not understand his (Phil) approach, basically I am very surprised. I feel the same way you felt when “Patria” acted in such a sway that really “stung” you, remember? You were trying to understand his actions and even asked him to return and redeem him by acting responsively, remember?

Today I am in that position, can you feel me? I always thought of Phil as an Independentista in a learning and positive way. You have to admit that your cousin is limited in English and Phil is limited in Spanish, this brings the possibility for discord and misinformation as well as friction.

I am trying, and have been asking about the term “Jerky people”, thus far the only explanations I found feasible are these: “A hard headed person”, “A dried tasty person” “a flexible but not elastic palatable person” “ a strong headed” and “a opinioned person”

The terminology “ Intellectual Masturbator stick together” means, a group of intellectual persons that are excessively self absorbed or self-indulgent among themselves. The word “masturbator” was not used in a sexual sense, but he was describing what he felt about the vast knowledge you all displayed toward him.

I am not defending anybody, but looking for a common ground….walk with me brother! This is what Phil said:

no argument here
knowledge of our history, culture and people are very important, because only through knowledge are we able to defend our opinions in a well round manner.


No argument whatsoever.


Thats exactly what I am trying to do. But some uppity people here feel they can look down on their noses instead of educating someone. Instead of something intelligent to say, she had insults. What a fallacy! Knowledge has been replaced by insults here in this forum. Now that her feelings were hurt she wants to talk about shes a lady? Puhleese. If any of you have a program that deciphers user code that tracks male or female gender, let me get a copy!

The only dumb question is one that isnt asked. Will I apologize for not being born in PR? NO! Will I apologize for not responding in spanish? NO! Will I apologize for being a neophyte is island politics? NO! As for being a "callejero"... don't make me laugh. Come with a better one...

Once again the question remains:

Why is Maria Lourdes de Santiago such a hot ticket? Will I be answered with insults or what? Or am I wasting my time here at PuertoRico.com?
He is acknowledging the importance of knowledge, is not he? He is also sort of explaining or stating the fact that he had no idea your cousin was a female. Perhaps he would have acted or responded with more respect, do you not think so?
He took ,in my opinion, her responses toward him as an insult as well. He being a “city boy” I imagine with poor public education, but with the desire to improve himself, considered her as a rich, and well educated but arrogant person, not saying that was right, but in a forum, our writings can be misunderstood or taken out of context.
Although we are all Puertorricans we do have different environment and culture pollution that will create culture clashes and discord. Guaili, I hope you understand my position here. However this will be my last plead for Phil.
Phil, if I am wrong or right, please enter here and establish the record strait!

[i]If PhiDawg wants to stay, that's his decision. Es_Vedra would even teach him or help him out in learning anything he would like to know, those were her original intentions. He asked a question and she answered it then he got upset. I believe he felt insulted because she corrected him on the proper name that Ecuajey originally supplied him with wrong, so she told him how to say it correctly María de Lourdes Santiago (Vicepresidenta del PIP). She said -Que Huevo!!! Which he may not have understood because he's not from the Island, but it's a common thing to say when someone makes a goofy error that has innocent humor in it. If you re-read her post to him, she was just "relajando" with him. That's also why she didn't get mad at his insults because she likes to laugh and joke around. I got serious, yes, cause I though she might be upset, she told me she wasn't and to cool it, so I backed off. She would be more than happy to help PhiDawg with whatever he would like to know. I myself am "disponible" to add to that, this all of course if he wishes, if not, just simply continue participating and we just go our different ways and when he wishes to communicate it will be recieved open armed. I never really had a problem with him, y el me cayo bien ante de que hiciera eso, which was a shock to me and that's why I got upset too. Well it's up to him, but I believe we have yet again found a mutual understanding between us Conciencia.

Atentamente,

Guaili

[Es_Vedra]

Originally posted by Leticia_g
Gracias por tus palabras, me alegro que hay mas gente aqui para educar y orientar los demas con la politica y cultura de nuestra Isla.

Es triste lo que el govierno de los Estados Unidos han echo contra nuestra causa. Conozco muchas familias en Puerto Rico que fueron perjudicadas por el tratamiento causado a los independentista. Muchos de mis compatriotas tuvieron que dejar la isla porque ni trabajo conseguian. Los que se quedaron perdieron mucho y tuvieron que encontrar otra manera de sostenerse. El odio fue intenso, la destruccion moral fue grave, por eso nuestras gentes tienen tanto terror a decir que desean la independencia de nuestra isla. Todavia los resultados se notan porque tantos fueron afectados.

Aca en los estados, hemos tratado de forjar nuestra opinion de cualquier manera que podamos. Estamos tratando de demostrarle mas a las gente que somos un grupo que en verdad queremos nuestra isla.

Tenemos que seguir educando nuestras gente y nuestros hijos. Es la unica manera que podremos sobrevivir esto.

Con respeto y amor boricua siempre!

Leticia_g,

Hola, te manda un monton de cariño la nena de Rio Grande, prima de Guaili. Él me ha contado un monton de cosas super nítido y chevere de todos los personajes aquí. En primer lugar quiero darte gracias por haberme dicho todas las cosas bontias que me has contado. Me caes como el dulce de coco. Te diré que mi primo te tiene un respeto muy grande y un cariño medio tierno. Él es así. Me dijo que tu eres bien luchadora al igual que yo y eso respeto mucho en una persona que ha andado por los altibajos pero se ha levantado de nuevo como el morivivi la linda flor de nuestra tierra. Disculpa mi primo si a veces se pone así de guerrero, es que él defiende mucho lo que tiene en su corazón y te diré que ese mismo corazón no tiene tamaño. De veras a veces pienso yo que él nunca ha conocido el miedo, pues menos las veces que él me ha crispado los nervios ¡jí, jí!. Pues yo no soy facil tampoco. De todos modos es un ser humano maravilloso, sincero y lindo por dentro y por fuera. Desde niño ha sido así desde cuando volabamos juntos por todas las calles de nuestro pueblo Rio Grande.

Volviendo al tema, nuestra Isla Puerto Rico está entre la espada y la pared, es una cosa bien fea y hay que luchar y ser bravo. Sabemos todos lo que está pasando en estos momentos en nuesto país, ojalá que sí, con el PNP que se encuentra en su peor momento con toda la corrupción que está todavía saliendo a flote. Hasta una ex asistante de Fajardo y coacusada en el mismo caso dijo que el daño al partido es irremediable que ha destruido todo.

Pues, y la persecusión que sucedió en contra de Independentistas en la década del 1970 fue muy represiva y violenta en contra de los luchadores anticoloniales puertorriqueños que incluyó casos de asesinato político, algunos de los cuales aún no se han esclarecido plenamente. Entre las víctimas figuran: Antonia Martínez (Río Piedras, marzo 1970); Julio Roldán (Nueva York, octubre 1970); Angel Charbonier (Mayagüez, enero 1975); Santiago (Chagui) Mari Pesquera (San Juan, marzo 1976); Juan Rafael Caballero (Luquillo, octubre 1977); Carlos Soto Arriví y Arnaldo Darío Rosado (Cerro Maravilla, julio 1978); Carlos Muñiz Varela (San Juan, abril 1979); Angel Rodríguez Cristóbal (Tallahasee, noviembre 1979).

Quiero agradecer a mi primo querido Guaili y su socio Caamaño, y a ti Leticia_g que ustedes me hayan invitado a presentar y conversar con los aquí presentes sobre este importante tema. Pues, más allá de las carpetas en esta breve presentación, permítanme tratar de aportar a la discusión compartiendo con ustedes algunos datos históricos y muestras de documentos.

El hecho es que el FBI ha estado muy vinculado a la persecución política en Estados Unidos desde sus propios orígenes, según ha quedado documentado en los trabajos de numerosos historiadores, en informes de investigaciones del Congreso de Estados Unidos y hasta en algunas historias oficiales o semioficiales de la propia agencia federal.

Esa agencia cumplió labores de vigilancia y persecución de activistas políticos y sindicales desde temprano en el siglo 20, específicamente a partir de 1908 cuando surgió como una unidad del Departamento de Justicia de Estados Unidos, bajo el nombre de Bureau of Investigation. En el Departamento de Justicia federal, también existieron otras unidades con tareas similares. Una particularmente notoria fue la General Intelligence Division (GID) creada en 1919 por el Procurador General de Estados Unidos. Esa unidad era conocida también como Radical Division porque su propósito era precisamente, investigar "radicales". La GID sólo duró cinco años pero en ese corto tiempo llegó a crear sobre 200,000 expedientes de personas, organizaciones y publicaciones consideradas radicales. Esos expedientes o carpetas sirvieron de base para llevar a cabo redadas y detenciones en masa, incluyendo la del 2 de enero de 1920 donde fueron arrestadas sobre 10,000 personas.

El notorio J. Edgar Hoover, quien fuera director del FBI durante 48 años y como tal el principal ideólogo y arquitecto de los programas de persecución política de dicha agencia, se inició precisamente en la dirección de la GID de 1919 a 1924. La GID fue eliminada en 1924 en medio de escándalos de persecución política y vigilancia ilegal que incluyó entre sus victimas a miembros del Senado de Estados Unidos. Irónicamente, J. Edgar Hoover no sólo sobrevivió el escándalo sino que, al desaparecer la GID, fue nombrado como el nuevo director del Bureau of Investigation.

Existen memorandos del FBI, tan antiguos como 1936, donde Hoover ordena a todas sus oficinas de campo la recopilación de información sobre actividades llamadas "subversivas". A partir de la información recogida, el FBI confeccionó listas de supuestos subversivos, tanto ciudadanos como extranjeros. Es precisamente para esa época que llegan los primeros agentes del FBI a Puerto Rico con el encargo de investigar las actividades del Partido Nacionalista de Puerto Rico y su dirigente Don Pedro Albizu Campos. En años recientes ha circulado al menos uno de los informes que prepararon en 1937 los agentes del FBI Edgar K. Thompson y Dante DiLillo con el auxilio de la oficialidad de la Policía de Puerto Rico, llamada en ese entonces "Policía Insular".

Otro memorándum del notorio Hoover, fechado en 1939, hace referencia a un listado especial de un grupo de las personas fichadas y que el FBI denominaba Custodial Detention. Dichas personas eran candidatos a ser arrestados "preventivamente" en caso de una "emergencia nacional". Cuando en 1943 el Procurador General Francis Biddle ordenó la terminación del Custodial Detention, Hoover emitió una orden para cesar el programa pero, al mismo tiempo, secretamente ordenó la continuación del mismo con un nuevo nombre: Security Index. En otro memorando secreto de Hoover (1949) sobre el funcionamiento Security Index, las instrucciones incluían expresamente a Puerto Rico. La afiliación o simpatía con el independentismo puertorriqueño era al momento razón suficiente para ser fichado y ser considerado candidato o candidata para el Security Index.

Más tarde, en 1971, se repetiría el mismo patrón: cuando el Congreso eliminó las secciones de la Ley McCarran (que hubieran permitida la detención preventiva de ciudadanos considerados "subversivos") Hoover se las ingenió para continuar la práctica mediante otro cambio de nombre: el Security Index a partir de ese momento pasó a llamarse Administrative Index o ADEX. Vemos entonces que uno de los propósitos del carpeteo era servir de base para la elaboración de un listado de personas a ser arrestadas en caso una situación de "emergencia". En los documentos a continuación, veremos ejemplos de los formularios del Custodial Detention, el Security Index, y el Administrative Index.

Lo expuesto hasta aquí debe dejar claro que las carpetas no fueron un invento "local" ni una desviación policíaca autóctona. El modelo del carpeteo en Puerto Rico fue copiado del modelo estadounidense desarrollado principalmente a partir de la Primera Guerra Mundial y expandido dramáticamente en la década de los años 30.

Documentos del FBI demuestran que cuando menos desde la década de 1940 hasta la de 1970 se mantuvieron listados para realizar arrestos preventivos en caso de una emergencia. En diferentes épocas, cientos, y quizá miles, de puertorriqueños han estado incluidos en dichos listados.

Pero además, el récord histórico en Puerto Rico ilustra claramente este punto. En el 1950, por ejemplo, a raíz de la Insurrección Nacionalista, se procedió a arrestar en masa, no sólo a las personas que participaron en las actividades insurreccionales, sino también a simpatizantes del independentismo en general. Fueron arrestados miembros del Partido Independentista Puertorriqueño (PIP), del Partido Comunista Puertorriqueño (PCP) y muchas otras personas que no tenían ninguna relación con la Insurrección. Fueron arrestadas sobre 1,000 personas pero sólo se sometieron acusaciones contra menos de 200. ¿Cómo es posible que se arrestara a tantas personas totalmente desvinculadas de los hechos? Sencillamente, las listas de supuestos "subversivos" sirvieron de base para los arrestos. Así quedó documentado en un estudio realizado por el Dr. David Helfeld para el Comité de Derechos Civiles a finales de la década del 50 y publicado en 1964 por la Revista del Colegio de Abogados de Puerto Rico.

Pues hasta aquí creo que te dije bastante Leticia. Te digo mas si quieres, pero despues. Tengo que acostarme ahora porque me levanto temprano por la mañana. Platicamos despues.

Saludos cordiales,

Vedra

[conciencia]

Si, denuevo estamos en acuerdo mutuo. Me alegra que estemos syncronizados.

Luego nos comunicamos!

[Desenmascarador]

Aqui estoy para desenmascarar a esos patrioteros separtistas acomplejados y antiamericanos. Le vamos a quitar a todos la mascara; los separatistas nacionalistas patrioteros y regala-patria son unos deceivers.

Estadidad es la que hay!!!

Puero Rico, USA