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Introduction to Economic Theories by Yautia

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  • Introduction to Economic Theories by Yautia

    Dear PR.Com: There seems to be an interest of those concerned with the Independentistas on PR.com and economic theories. I am interested in the subject. Let us see how we can begin this discussion. How about if we invite the Jib to join us? How about if we begin real easy a discussion about
    The Worldly Philosophers:
    The Lives, Times and Ideas of the Great Economic Thinkers.

    Dear Jibaro: How very ignorant you are about independentistas. If they are socialist or communist it means we must read a lot of economic theory. It seems to me you got stuck in Economics 101 in some rinky dinky universidad somewhere in never, never land. I'm beginning to suspect you are suffering from a Peter Pan syndrome. Even in Never, Never land, I am sure they begin with Adam Smith.

    I am sure you know something about Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations. But I do not believe you have even read the "Communist Manifesto" by Karl Marx, read it, it is easy and required reading in the "Introduction to the Social Sciences" (Ciencias Sociales 101 at UPR, Rio Piedras) and many other Liberal Colleges in the USA, I am sure. I have also read Veblen, Weber, John Maynard Kaynes, Joseph Schumpeter, Daniel Malthus, David Ricardo and Robert Owens. There are many that I have forgotten but will come to me later. (Who can ever forget Kuhn and his concern with paradigm shifts?) I am familiar with John Stuart Mill (as an utopian socialist), Henry George, John Hobson, and more recently have read much of those thinkers that are clearly driven as much by their humanism as by their intellectual importance as worldly philosophers. Heilbroner is one of those that have made the worldly philosophers easy to read, why don't you try reading Heilbroner. He makes economics lively and entertaining without excessive dependence on anecdotal trivia or personal oddities such as Karl Marx and his relationship to Engels, (by the way I prefer to read Engels to reading Marx). Engels has a wonderfull way of explaining the origin of religion and what that has to do with economics! (Especialmente la etica protestante).

    I think a small dose of actual economic theory from the broad field of these thinkers is a good place for you to begin. You may have to brush up on learning about economics you know, the basic 101 stuff, or the theories of your heroes and a few of mine. We can begin with yours, Adam Smith, the invisible hand of the market economy and the specialization and freedom of the blue collar worker. Then there is Malthus, the effects of (el cuco de los capitalistas) the inevitable population growth and your problems with the Third World. (Don't tell me to throw out all the Mexicans because they are Catholic and need to be sterilized before letting them cross the boarder to chase the American Dream ala Linda Chavez and The Heritage Foundation, a Think Tank of the Ultra Right). I bet you don't know the Heritage Foundation hates your guts. They are very busy trying to eliminate people like you from the face of the earth, they hate Jibaros, and hate them more if they are bilingual and Hispanic! Check out the "English Only Movement" and "Language Loyalty" by Crawford).

    I do not know if you will fare well with Thorstein Veblen, John Maynard Keynes and Joseph Schumpeter, I'm afraid they may upset your apple cart. Now Ricardo is a problem because I do not think you understand the relationship between land, exchange of goods, and relative value (forget the gold standard, Nixon took care of that), can you understand the conflict between landowners and industrialists? Basic, never mind the new global economy, with the breed of the X generation and after, those youths in charge of a computer generated paper economy via silicone valley and the internet.com. fiasco. That is too much to ask of you, I understand.

    You must consider the idea of a fundamental distinction between economic production models and political economy with its relation to economic distribution and the market economy in places such as Puerto Rico and Latin America. "Plusvalia" would give you a heart attack. So...You must study the Chicago School of Economics and the New Liberal Economic Models of that school, including Milton Friedman. (Start with Chile). I am afraid your "forte" is not philosophy, much less the "Worldly Philosophers." If you really understood that you would give up being a Christian, after all, remember, Jesus was a Communist, old chanclas and all...

    You see many of these economic thinkers come from that dirty word, the schools of "Humanism" and the formation of their ideas must be seen in their social and intellectual context. One must explore the ways these philosophers influenced the policies of the power elites and one must be aware of how they, in turn, set off social and cultural trends that had a broader influence and not just in the Capitalist "first world" but our world, Latin American and other such countries. But before any of that will make sense you have to have a clear paradigm and see how each theory fits your paradigm, remember there is a great paradigm shift right now in Capitalist America, and many new, fresh faces in the free market economy; economist that I am sure you would admire, are fascinated and quoting Marx as their newly discovered Guru, check it out!

    But let us speak of Latin America and Ricardo's model. After all I am a Jibara and facinated with the theories of Land and exchange. Ricardo must be seen in the context of the British Corn Laws, Veblen's in the context of a theory of "economic psychopathology? Ay, Dios mio, economic is part of the soft sciences, the social sciences, what are we to do? Let us go back and place economic theory in the context of the late 19th century and how that influenced the "Robber Barons" in Europe and Latin America and so forth.

    What about Fidel and the Cuban Economy, will you let me quote Listen Yankee by C. Wright Mills? After all Cuba y Puerto Rico son dos alas de un mismo pajaro!

    By the way I was Associate Professor at Rutger's Department of Labor Studies.

    Now, where do you want to begin? Or does anybody wanna help out the Jib, here? I would like to begin with the good old USA and Robert Owens, his idea that you can treat workers in a decent way and make a profit, that should be music to your ears, after all you must believe in compassionate capitalism, or don't you? If that is OK with you, but first do a little research on him so I can begin your edification and introduce you to general studies, or better yet to Labor Education. That would solve two problems, The role of the Puerto Rican worker in the Economic Paradigm of the USA, The history of labor migration from PR; and also it is an intro into the organization, methods, and philosophy of the political economic training of independentistas at the UPR, Rio Piedras during the 60s. Who knows, maybe you will shift your paradigm!

    Yautia
    Paz Para Vieques
    Que Viva Puerto Rico Libre y Socialista


    [Edited by yautiawoman2 on 16th February 2003 at 08:32]

  • #2
    Theories, nothing more...

    If all those great thinkers of Socialist/communist economic theories are so right, How come all those socialists/communists and "other" 3rd world nations are so much in debt to the World Bank? Why are they borrowing money from capitalistic/"imperialistic" countries, and can't pay back? Just like Marx's Manifesto. It is not worth the paper it is written on! Here we are, always lowering our standards, so mediocrety can survive. Hey, why not get all the birds and cut their wings off, so they have to walk like everyone else, and don't forget the fish, get them out of the water, so they either walk like everyone else...or die! Capitalism is the evolution of the individual. Can you imaging how boring it will be if we all were/looked/had/thought/wanted the same??? Saludos cordiales...JRod...

    Comment


    • #3
      Yautia:

      You cited a huge number of folks. But, I would like to know what is your TAKE on this. How will you produce the wealth needed to feed and support the masses?

      Capitalism is no piece of cake; I agree. It is a lot like animals in the wild where the strong eats the weak. It is Darwinian type system with survival of the fittest and natural selection. The only advantage of this system is that the strong gets the chance to pass their genes to the next generation and in the case of humans our own values (work ethic). Is it an evil system for the weak? Yes, no doubt about it and this is what you would like to fix. You want to somehow make sure the weak are taken care off by preventing the strong to do their thing. In this regard J-Rod is correct!

      Pretend you have a race track (Hipodromo El Comamdante) and there are several horses who win most of the races whereas the rest always finish in the middle or last. With your system all we have to do is cut or injure the legs of the fast horses. IN the end we are left with horses that run more or less at the same speed. In other words everyone is slow. THat is why you have uniform mediocrity in communists countries. The worker simply pretends to work and the government pretends to pay them (an old Russian saying). I don't have to remind you about the difference in productivity bewtween a West German worker when compared to an East German during the Berlin Wall days. I bet you were sorry to see that wall come down!!

      Regarding the Cuban economy: About 20-30% of Cuban economy runs on the dollars send by the Cubans in Miami to their relatives who are among the most poor in the hemisphere (Haiti may be the only exception). If not for the black market which operates with dollars there would be no supplies whatsoever (including toilet aper). Did I tell you my sister married a Cuban who got out in the late 70s? I heard about this things from the horse's mouth, trust me on this one. There are a lot of things you do not know about everyday life in Cuba. Only the well connected with Fidel live well. The rest are in dire straits. I know you and your campaneros go there regularly for indoctrination, but trust me as a visitor you do not get to see the real Cuba. You probably get to see the Cuba reserved for the tourists.

      I am glad you are so well versed in economic theories, but you must take the sunglasses off to help you see reality a little better.



      Los recuerdos suelen
      Contarte mentiras



      Stanley

      Comment


      • #4
        The Road to Independence and Economic Freedom

        [QUOTE]Originally posted by Stanley
        [B]Yautia:


        I am glad you are so well versed in economic theories, but you must take the sunglasses off to help you see reality a little better.
        ___________________________________________________________
        ___________________________________________________________

        Dear Stanley: Here we go again;
        If I have glasses on, they are really reading glasses, you know, so the letters can be bigger, so I can read better, now let us see what kind of glasses you are wearing.

        Let's cut to the chase, you wanna know my take on the issue of economics, after all, if you read philosophy, worldly or idealist philosophy? You will soon see that each philosopher has a complete and logical system, the issue again is, what is your paradigm. If we are speaking about colored glasses you must be stuck on Plato or on Kant, they are the guys who insist on glasses to see the world. I am quite clear on mine, Stan. I am a pipiola, Stan, it is a PIP paradigm, there is no doubt about it!

        The real issue is that many people, I would say, most people in Puerto Rico would like for us to be a free and sovereign nation (Independentistas and a great deal of Populares, even those that do not like Gringo culture but do like the U$ dollars among the PNP are independentistas at heart).

        Their problem is a great deal of fear (besides the carpetas by the FBI, the torture as in nacionalistas in jails, and the killings by the US of Puerto Rican patriots in US Jails, and in Puerto Rico by their colonial lackies) but let us stick to the subject: Economics, and independence.

        The people of Puerto Rico fear independence because they think we do not have the capacity to sustain Puerto Rico's current economic situation, as if that were not total chaos. We are currently surviving on a parallel economy and nobody wants to even talk about what that parallel economy is all about.

        Now we understand that people here in PR.com do have serious concerns and that these concerns lead to legitimate economic issues. That is why the Puerto Rican Independence Party (PIP), its leadership, recognizes its responsibility to answer such questions. Our position is transparently clear: “Independence will be accomplished by the people of Puerto Rico, with our iron will, hard work and desire to achieve what so many other nations have conquered: national independence. We hope that what follows will answer your questions about how Puerto Rico would manage as a sovereign nation.”ONLY AS AN INDEPENDENT COUNTRY SHALL WE ACHIEVE GREATER ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND PROSPERITY
        Economic Development Only as an independent country will Puerto Rico obtain the powers necessary to augment our economic production and create more employment:
        § The power to create economic incentive for our industry, commerce and agriculture sector, thus increasing our productivity and reduce our trade deficit.
        § The power to regulate immigration.
        § The power to legislate in order to derogate the U.S. Coastal Shipping Law’s constrains over Puerto Rico in order to approve our own laws.
        § The power to sign international treaties so as to attract investment from Japan, the United States and members of the European Union by using the mechanism of tax exemptions and fiscal reciprocity that could not be achieved under our current colonial relationship with the United States, nor as a state of the United States of America.
        § The power to expand our export markets and to purchase from the least expensive markets.Only through independence will we be able to insert ourselves in the new global economy. Independence will grant us the power to join regional and international organizations as a full-fledged voting member.Social Development As stated above, independence will encourage the expansion of the job market and economic production, which in turn will lead to a reduction and eventual disappearance of our economic dependence, our idle workforce and isolation which is fundamentally responsible for a great deal of our social problems. Moreover, by becoming the owners of our own destiny, we will strengthen our national pride and self-esteem.With independence we will have the prerogative to take the reins of developing our national environmental policy, created in response to our particular conditions and needs, and directed to protect our national patrimony, improve our quality of life and limit the great costs which occur as a result of environmental damage. Can small countries such as Puerto Rico attain economic prosperity? A country’s territorial extension, population density and size are not factors that determine whether a country will attain sound economic development. There are plenty of examples that go to show that a small country can become an economic power. Close to one-fourth of the world is composed of countries which have less population than Puerto Rico. Among them, there are some which are poorer than Puerto Rico, but many others such as Luxemburg, Brunei and Singapore are prosperous and wealthy when compared to Puerto Rico. What is important to a country’s economic development is whether that country has the capacity to take advantage of its national assets – natural, human, political and cultural resources; geographic location and infrastructure – in a creative manner, so as to maximize their potential. What is determinant in an independent nation’s quest for economic prosperity is whether that nation can use its sovereign powers to exploit its resources and agree to beneficial treaties with other countries with the purpose of stimulating its economy. Various countries of similar size or smaller than Puerto Rico population wise, which some decades ago were poorer than Puerto Rico, currently have a greater income per capita than our country. Countries such as Bahamas, Cyprus, Malta and Singapore, which have a smaller territorial area than Puerto Rico, after achieving independence were able surpass Puerto Rico’s per capita income. COMPARATIVE TABLE: PUERTO RICO AND OTHER COUNTRIES

        COUNTRY Area (km²) Population 1990(x1000) PNB Per Capita1970 PNB Per Capita1980 PNB Per Capita1995(PPP$**)
        Argentina 2,766,889 33,533 3,533 3,996 8,498
        Barbados 430 259 4,252 5,453 11,306
        Chile 756,945 14,065 1,397 1,580 9,930
        Cyprus 9,252 726 *** 4,164 13,316
        South Korea 98,484 44,500 967 1,953 11,594
        Ireland 70,284 3,710 5,656 7,791 17,590
        Malta 320 368 760 3,713 13,316
        St. Kitts/Nevis 261 40 *** 1,767 10,150
        Singapore 618 3,300 950 5,907 22,604
        Trinidad/Tobago 300 1,300 3,185 5,218 9,437
        Venezuela 912,050 22,000 3,298 3,067 8,090
        PUERTO RICO 9,000 3,719 3,900 5,362 7,685
        Source: Report on Human Development,United Nations (UN) **Real gross per-capita domestic product (purchasing power parity)***No data reported for that year
        Now, at this very moment the economy of Argentina is in total chaos after following the USA and the World Bank recommendations, and please don't blame the people, blame the leadership that follows the US Capitalist model a la Milton Friedman. Because some of this data is outdated, and because we do not have a lot of space to dedicate to Argentina, we must rely on the last official data available at this time, so we have decided to go ahead and post it. If you have something new, please feel free to post here.

        Different from past circumstances, Puerto Rico cannot boast having the highest per-capita income in Latin America and the Caribbean. Argentina had surpassed Puerto Rico in absolute numbers since 1996, with the highest per-capita income. Argentina’s yearly per-capita income was $8,380 versus Puerto Rico’s $8,119 (1996). If we cite data from the World Bank or the United Nations (UN), which measure the per-capita product, in terms of purchasing power rather than absolute terms, Puerto Rico’s economic stagnation is evidenced even more dramatically. That specific manner of measuring economic conditions, known as "purchasing power parity", shows that after 1995 Puerto Rico had fallen behind Venezuela, (and think of Venezuela now, and please don't blame the left, he is one of those military boys that believes in a dependent state, the left is not happy with him in Venezuela) then there is St. Kitts & Nevis, Trinidad–Tobago, Chile with Milton Friedman's Privatization of everything, and Argentina, pobre Argentina, but remember "Don't Cry for Me, Argentina". They are still there. Even more dramatic is the fact that Barbados and Ireland’s per-capita gross national product (GNP) has surpassed Puerto Rico’s per-capita GNP since 1970.Why have other nations not been able to develop and prosper despite being independent countries? Independence paves the way for Puerto Rico’s economic progress. Nevertheless, many other countries in Latin America and the rest of the world – for example, Haiti, Dominican Republic- achieved independence before going through a period of political and economic modernization. These countries’ colonial experience did not provide the means for a transitional period where its citizens would ease into political, organizational and entrepreneurial power, as the empire’s hegemony decreased, as was the case of the Thirteen Colonies which eventually formed the independent country known as the United States of America. On the other hand, it is notable that countries such as Costa Rica and Uruguay – which achieved independence around the same time as Haiti and the Dominican Republic – have certainly attained comparable or better economic conditions and quality of life when compared to those currently present in Puerto Rico. But remember there is still a lot of unrest in Latin America and the US is loosing its grip on the region.

        The same way as the Thirteen Colonies (later known as the United States of America <USA>), benefited from independence, Puerto Rico should not doubt that political sovereignty will give us the opportunity to tap on resources that have already been developed and nurtured under colonial rule. After all, those resources were developed once Puerto Rico was given a limited degree of self-government, after five decades of devastating dictatorial U.S. governors, hand-picked by the President of the United States. Our greatest resource is the education of our people, mostly Jibaros and the blue collar working class and professional class who are servants of those from "la losa."

        To think that independence would turn the clock of history and bring back the levels of illiteracy which plagued our country at the turn of the Century; to think that by an act of magic our modern infrastructure will disappear; to believe that our universities will cease to exist, is an irrational underestimation of Puerto Rico’s capacity to, at the very least, maintain our present day achievements. Not to understand this is to be ignorant of the wealth we have because of the high level of education of our population compared to those levels of higher educational acquired by all groups in the USA, including WASP males in the USA. Did you know that?

        This is the official position of the PIP and if you would like more I will be happy to post more.

        Have a Nice Day!

        Yautia



        Paz Para Vieques
        Venceremos!!!!





        [Edited by yautiawoman2 on 16th February 2003 at 22:34]

        Comment


        • #5
          Yautia:

          You have a tendency to change topics when your back is againts the wall. On your 1st post you were talking about the virtues of communism and in your second you talk about independence for PR and never, not even once mentioned communism. In any event I am not going to complain. The sooner you forget that Marxist stuff the better.

          If you read my posts you will see that I have no beef with any independentista who believes in freedom and is not a hard-core socialist. But, when your daughter Suki tells me that I am agreedy person for wanting to have air-conditioning and and SUV I get worried. She went on as far as to tell me that all I needed to live in PR was a pair of sandals, shorts and two T-shirts. She also stated I did not need a four bedroom house and I could do OK in a Bohio. This gives the impression that some on the left want independence even if we end up with a lower standard of living.

          Like any other Puerto Rican I also dream with a free PR and economic success. My only concern are the folks who want Marxism or Fidelism (whatever you want to call it).

          Your post gives the illusion that we Puerto Ricans are somehow superior and smarter than all other Latin nations. You say that if we gain independence we will be able to deal with the world on our own and get a better deal in trade, ect, ect. Of course, I have to assume that the leaders of all these other non-colonial Latin American countries are extrenmely incompetent and do not know how to take advantage of the very things you mentioned in your laundry list. We are talking about countries with much more area and natural resources than PR. So one must conclude that poor Latin leaders don't know anything about how to run their economies and somehow we Puerto Ricans would know what to do. You give the illusion that if we could be independent we could all be swimming in Pesos criollos with a much better standard of living. And then Suki had to spoil the message by saying we would live in huts with one pair of sandals, a bicycle, and no air-conditioning.

          Then you have the audacity to mention Singapore! Have you ever been there? You can go to jail if you throw a piece of paper on the ground. They have cameras in the public bathrooms to make sure everybody flushes the toilets. But then again, this would not bother you.



          Do you ever think about the fact that the only reason you got to put food in your mouth and had a chance to go to school was because of Munoz Marin? He was the architect that brought PR out of the dark ages. It is funny how you mentioned every known European thinker in your 1st post and never not even once talked about Munoz Marin. The guy who personally helped you and your family to put food in the table. Hmm, I think you have too much information at hand. In the end the only thing that matters is "Barriga Llena; Corazon contento". We Puerto Ricans need to be sure that our way of life is preserved whether we end up a state or an independent country. And the sad truth is that I and many other fellow Puerto Ricans do not trust the far left. I would rather see a gusano Cubano vacationing in our beaches that your Cubano buddy Ricardo Alarcon. Don't deny this, in another post you said you admired this guy.


          Los recuerdos suelen
          Contarte mentiras



          Stanley

          Comment


          • #6
            Look Stanley the LD man

            Did I say YOU had to live in a hut and have one pair of shorts and one bicycle and live in a bohio with no air conditioning? No, what I said (and this is proof of your short memory span problems) was that how much wealth does one need to live in the tropics....and went on so say you need some fruit, vegetables, rice, fish....a bicycle and good public transportation,to alleviate the tapones, and some cement and sand (presumably to build a good home with) and an education and to be productive working and being busy. I did not say I would force you to live a simple life. That is something I would choose for myself. YOU have learning disabilities Stan. Then you state something in which I talk about OXFAM (a world hunger organization) in which I am talking about poor Indians in India and how it is UNREALISTIC to expect each Indian citizen to have two laptops, an SUV a four bedroom house in the burbs with a lawnmower etc. and that if every person on planet earth would be consuming at that level there would only be enough resources for 40 years before all resources would be exhausted and as such to expect that every third world person on Planet Earth is going to live with that standard of living is UNREALISTIC....BUT that (as a socialist) we could atleast RAISE UP the standard of living from horrifying miserable wretched poverty with no hope, to people with a wooden roof and cement floor, clothing, adequate food, a bicycle and enough education, vaccines, etc. in able for the adults in these places to have a decent life and provide for their children in the future. THAT is what I said.......I have never said I want all Puerto Ricans especially materialistic obsessed Stanley to live like Gandhi with a loin cloth and homespun, fasting every Monday and living a monkish existence....and his outrageous distortions lead me to believe Stan has learning disabilities.

            Suki

            Look, we can argue about what is more important in the world. You already think nature is cruel and only the strong survive? And that if you can't 'make' it in the free market system...you are weak and te comen los leones...and life is like that...sad reality etc. A high percentage of the world is being eaten by the lions. I gave you a microcosm example of socialism through the Dulce, NM group of Jicarilla Apache. You and the other fool AR started in on the stereotypes of lazy, Indians etc. alcoholic they don't deserve anything etc. (which btw they are not) and their incomes were more than acceptable. Why? BECAUSE they share the wealth. There is wealth already for all, the problem is it is concentrated in few hands and being wasted and also because the majority of people (like you Stan) have no desire, conscience or sense of 'pooling' resources to benefit everyone. Einstein addressed something interesting in his essay on socialism. I suggest you counter his arguments if you have such incredible faith in Capitalism. My belief is simple.....what is money? Is it just a currency to exchange goods and services, and an incentive to develop resources? Or for the people who already have enough of it and still want more of it...is it about POWER? and making the 'losers' and the 'brutos' and the 'pobres' do what the 'winners' and the 'intelligent' and the 'superior' want them to do?

            Stanley do you seriously think Luis Munoz Marin is the one who worked six days a week washing dishes in a bar and grill for fourty years like my mother's father, and or like my beloved Inita...abuelita, my mother's mother (que descanse en paz), who worked in garment district sweatshops for 20 something years for lousy wages and scrimped and saved to buy a home back in that die-hard Jibara's beloved isla? Do you think either of those Jibaros wanted to come to NYC and work like dogs with no English, having to deal with picketing and striking due to horrible working conditions and just above survival wages for years....never being on welfare by the way and when they had a chance to go back to their lovely island....they went back right away...yeah, Stan Munoz Marin if he really had solved the problems of poor Jibaros he would have been able to provide sufficient jobs for them so they did not have to leave the island in the first place. Or do you think my poor and jibaro grandparents should be grateful that they got ripped off with low wages and dangerous working conditions because after all they are the LOSERS in the survival of the fittest capitalist game these rich and infamous people got going over here Stan? Since you identify so strongly with them "the winners" why don't you tell us what you feel about dishwashers and seamstresses in garment districts of rich nations all over the world and how they are RIPPING off the system and living off the fat of the land? Or is some Suv, guy guzzling starbucks with a cell phone and working 3 hours a day while his secretary does most of his work for him and makes 3 million a year is suppose to make me think.....hey, that guy's worth more than Inita my abuelita. Why cause his bank account says he is. Maybe that is your value system.......BUT it is NOT mine!!!

            [Edited by Suki on 17th February 2003 at 01:47]

            Comment


            • #7
              Suki:

              I would be grateful if you would stip throwing insults. It does not advance your point that well. In any event when you mentioned the hut and the bicycle you seemed to imply that I should be OK with such accomodations. There is no need to become angry or defensive. This is nothing more than a friendly dialogue between two fellow Puerto Ricans and as I said before I learn a lot from the two of you. But, lets keep it clean if you don't mind.

              I am trapped in my home with two feet of snow outside and I will be happy to post to you in the next several hours (or days). Feel free to let it all out, but try to be nice to me. There is no need to retaliate for my prior jokes, there are nothing more than jokes PR style with no contamination from that evil PC movement. My only mission in this board is to bring you to the center.



              Los recuerdos suelen
              Contarte mentiras



              Stanley

              Comment


              • #8
                When a person has a learning disability....

                [QUOTE]Originally posted by Stanley
                [B]Suki:

                I would be grateful if you would stip throwing insults. It does not advance your point that well. In any event when you mentioned the hut and the bicycle you seemed to imply that I should be OK with such accomodations. There is no need to become angry or defensive. This is nothing more than a friendly dialogue between two fellow Puerto Ricans and as I said before I learn a lot from the two of you. But, lets keep it clean if you don't mind.

                I am trapped in my home with two feet of snow outside and I will be happy to post to you in the next several hours (or days). Feel free to let it all out, but try to be nice to me. There is no need to retaliate for my prior jokes, there are nothing more than jokes PR style with no contamination from that evil PC movement. My only mission in this board is to bring you to the center.
                ___________________________________________________________

                When a person has a learning disability and this person is an adult, the first thing to do is single out some of the causes which scientists are investigating today. I suggest that you spend your time when you have two feet of snow outside, and willing to happily surf the internet to dedicate your time to solving your LD problem, Stan.

                Now, there is no one cause for your condition, some of the causes which scientists are investigating include:

                Genetic Pre-disposition: Since you are an advocate of social Darwinism, I thought this would be a good place for you to begin. You could come from a family who had children with LD, these families often report that other family members have had similar problems.

                Brain Differences: A recent study has found differences in the size and shape of parts of the brains of persons with dyslexia and or with attention deficit disorders, they find the brains of these persons are different from the brains of persons who do not have dyslexia or other similar LDs.

                Toxic Substances: Exposure to high levels of toxic substances like lead, heavy metals, acids and other such kinds of ingulgences during your college years may have contributed to your condition (this could also explain why you were so confused in your youth). These toxic substances can cause hyperactivity and learning problems that make you want to stick to that computer and get compulsive about pr.com, regardless of how much snow is outside. Get serious you need help and your posting obsession may contribute to your LD problem. And another thing Stan that photo with the finger, it looks like you are sticking the finger in your wife's face (choose something nicer and easier to look at post after post).

                Prenatal Exposures: Researchers are studying the effects of substances (drugs, chemicals, alcohol, food additives) which may be toxic to the central nervous system of the developing baby. And you know the USA gov't whom you trust so much Stan experimented with a lot of Puerto Rican women Stan. Did your mother have any such problems? No insult intended Stan. You must take all possible factors into consideration, Stan.

                Now I must tell you that there are a great many "baby boomers" with similar problems. So don't feel alone, Stan. There are support groups and plenty of money in the areas of ADA/IDEA/and as far as your children are concerned keep your eyes peeled, and don't trust Bushy and his "No child left behind" it is all a hoax Stan, really!

                And what does this all have to do with economics Stanley? There is plenty of money for those with LD, and this is the time and the opportunity to get up to par and improve.

                Yautia

                Comment


                • #9
                  Stan since you only respect conservatives....

                  Check out Arianna Huffington's new book entitled "Pigs at the Trough", she expounds on the state of corporate greed and welfare. She is a conservative Washington insider who is deeply disturbed on what is going on with the relationships between the lobbyists, the corporate folk, and the politicos in DC....if you read it carefully and still think the system is great and works for the benefit of all and want Puerto Rico to be a part of that then I will say you are truly lost and not even LD treatments will help. And I am just being as friendly as you are....and as respectful as you are being. De verdad.

                  Suki

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Look Stanley are you getting an education? I hope so. Because if you are going to sit back and say explain the differences Suki and Yautia on what is Marxism, what is Socialism and what is Capitalism? And who are all those economists you mention? And etc. etc. And the state of our schools, and famous educators, and world philosophy and history and what are the Greek classics, and how about cultural anthropology and hey, how about Cuban history prior to January 1,1959. And how about x,y,z. That is the problem we have today....a lot of people with opinions on subjects they have no education in or know anything about. If you are some scientist Stan why don't you tell us what your expertise is and educate us in it? Why doesn't Jibaro and AR do some educating? Because wherever I wind up or Yautia winds up....we always wind up some kind of education of people with no information. What are they teaching in schools nowadays I would like to know that the supposed hard science people don't know anything outside their specialized field....and then they like to erroneously accuse 'independentistas' of being one-track minded with no information on anything outside whatever. I have the privelege of having been around people (both parents too) who can talk about many subjects. I want Yautia to start a thread on Bertrand Russell, on Tennessee Williams, I want to start one on Martha Graham and Twyla Tharp. Yautia wants to also start one on Old Boleros, and she should hit philosophy too and get with the worldly philosophers and have Eddie exchange ideas with her too. And she likes discussing religion. And also all the fascinating things and people she has met. But instead what we have is men who are ultra conservative to the 10th power, who just want to talk about money, money, money. It bores me. People are the important thing in life not money and not power. And as far as I am concerned capitalism does not care about people it cares about money and power. Period. I am not some naive young woman who has never experienced life. I am thirty seven. And I realize now, how extremely fortunate I have been to have parents as good as Yautia. Who not only talk the talk and walk the walk, but who have not been boring for one second in their whole lives. I realize now that my life has been very enriched by people who are the opposite of boring. And that all these children rebelling against their parents probably has more to do with boredom and people like that Klebold kid from Columbine who had capitalist conservative parents who not only were boring and work obsessed thinking money is everything kids need, and forgot as homo sapiens (humans) what we need is not only money and survival of the blue chip American Express crowd mentality, but to put an emphasis on humans, and what makes our lives meaningful, with lively repartee and educational conversation underscored by love and tolerance and teaching by example and through lots of support and respect is effective in the long run in producing decent kids. I am not saying all capitalist parents will churn out a Klebold and a Harris....but if they think money and the survival of the fittest is the way to live life with very high standards of living and no values, in terms of human morality, they are dead wrong. And if you think the poor and uneducated are the losers and not to be respected and or considered and to be treated like excrement by the 'superior' crowd....you will be part of the problem if there is unrest in the world and not part of the solution and of peaceful co-existence. And if you teach your kids that the poor and the destitute and the ones who are unemployed and desperate to survive are to be looked down on and made fun of, and shunted aside and or ignored or just seen like worker bees with high expendability...then you are teaching them inhumanity, hedonism, selfishness and callousness are the hallmarks of the successful and the rich and the exclusive, and if you want to be respected by your parents you should not feel anything for the 'weak' and the ones eaten by the leones everyday. After all this is social darwinism. Is that the way the world works? Or is that how WE have MADE the world? With that attitude and that mentality? Because if we have that mentality then love has no place at all in this world. And there are people on this website who think trust no one in cyberspace. Some have legitimate and valid reasons for feeling that way. I know who they are, and they will always have my deepest respect. Others just like betraying others for their moodiness, their pride or image or addiction or hangups or who knows what. Those are to be avoided at all costs. But this medium should be about learning.

                    Yes we are of the left. We are not violent, and we are not interested in bucks for bucks sake. We have never lived on government doles, nor had to renounce our ethnicity or give up our Spanish to live anywhere. IF that is wrong, then there is a big problem with others value systems.

                    And let us be friendly. Positivity is always better.

                    Suki.

                    AND let us get back to economics PLEASE



                    [Edited by Suki on 17th February 2003 at 03:44]

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Suki:

                      Do not throw rocks at your neighbor if you both live in glass houses. I know for a fact that I have more years of education than the two of you put together. However, all my training is in science. My practice has a web site with all the biographical data of its members, but I am hesitant to post the URL because I want to remain anonymous.

                      I will admit ignorance regarding the minutia that the two of you like to throw out regarding your Gods (Fidel, Che, Lenin, et al). I am grateful that you and your mom want to share the information, but there is no need for the two of you to constantly try to show me and others how smart you are by posting the names of philosophers. Remember, anyone can accumulate data, but in the end the data can be like the hard drive with out a directory inside a computer with a bad CPU.

                      I am also disappointed with your recycled statements that you have used in the past to debate right wingers. I am a moderate and I agree with many things in the left. You are barking at the wrong dog. I have said from day one that I would accept a Euro style of government with the adequate mixture of capitalism and social programs. There is no point in trying to paint me as a right winger by regurgitating your memorized lines of left wing dogma. I have also said at nauseum that capitalism is evil. In this system only the smart and talented survive. The less talented and those with LD stay behind. However, I will not give up the system for socialism. In your system everybody would be slow----------- Fast horses are not allowed. Therefore one must live with the lesser of two evils: capitalism with a well designed network of social programs to help those who are less fortunate.


                      Los recuerdos suelen
                      Contarte mentiras



                      Stanley

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Back to Economics

                        For those who doubt that the USA has a big economic interest in keeping colonialism going in Puerto Rico here goes:






                        Snapshot of Puerto Rico
                        by columnist and Democracy Now host Juan Gonzalez
                        Estimated population of Puerto Rico- 3.8 million Estimated population of the United Kingdom- 58 million Size of U.K. in population vs. Puerto Rico 15:1

                        In 1995 U.S. multinational corporations profited an estimated $13.7 billion from the United Kingdom. Profits from Puerto Rico $13.3 billion Ratio 1:1

                        In 1995 U.S. multinational corporations profits from both Brazil and Mexico totaled $5.4 billion

                        Ratio by which Puerto Rico is more profitable than Brazil and Mexico combined for U.S. companies 2.5 to 1

                        Total value of imports and exports carried on U.S. merchant fleet ships in 1991- $470 billion. Puerto Rico represents 21.7 percent of that trade.

                        An estimated 15 percent of Americans residing on the mainland live in poverty. Sixty percent of Puerto Ricans live in poverty.

                        Twenty one states have a smaller population than Puerto Rico. If Puerto Rico became a state, the island would be entitled to two senators and seven congressional representatives. Currently Puerto Ricans can serve and die for the U.S. in the military. Puerto Ricans have served in every war since WWI. Puerto Ricans can not vote in federal elections.
                        Reflections Part I
                        Reflections Part II

                        Pacifica Network News and Democracy Now Coverage






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                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Stanley
                          Suki:

                          Do not throw rocks at your neighbor if you both live in glass houses. I know for a fact that I have more years of education than the two of you put together. However, all my training is in science. My practice has a web site with all the biographical data of its members, but I am hesitant to post the URL because I want to remain anonymous.

                          Suki: That is why I am asking why don't you use your education and knowledge to help people who are less fortunate. If you do then you are a socialist at heart, and not thinking about just rugged individualism and fast horses. You have posted so much about fast horses and fear of socialism (and socialism is big in the EU) that I thought you were a rawhide capitalist only. I am sorry if there was a misunderstanding Stanley but you constantly posted about the fear of socialism. I already posted in another thread that I would settle for an independent Puerto Rico, and work on the economic issues as they come up. I don't believe in force or violence and extremism. I do believe in justice for those who are not 'making' it. And you consistently try to paint both my mother and I as Al Qaeda types. Which is so off the wall and false it is laughable. Now, if you are different than AR (who thinks the reason for the bad in the world is atheism and people of all political persuasions are not fundamentalist christian and want to unite the church and state and not keep it separate) you are joining up with some very extreme people on this website.

                          I will admit ignorance regarding the minutia that the two of you like to throw out regarding your Gods (Fidel, Che, Lenin, et al). I am grateful that you and your mom want to share the information, but there is no need for the two of you to constantly try to show me and others how smart you are by posting the names of philosophers. Remember, anyone can accumulate data, but in the end the data can be like the hard drive with out a directory inside a computer with a bad CPU.

                          Suki: My gods are not human. And everyone studies Che, Lenin, etc. they are historical figures so do we also study Napoleon, and Alexander the Great, Churchill and Hitler. They are not my gods either...to imply that they are is also false on your part. I am not showing anybody how smart we are. What we are doing is disspelling lies about what independentistas are. Because JIBARO was the one (the liar he is) that stated independentistas are idiots and do not know anything about economics. Obviously, with this post....it is obvious he is a liar. And keeping people from smearing independentismo is a concern for politically aware independentistas on this public forum. Is that logical reaction to lying extremists like Jibaro...who by the way stated that he thought viequenses should be relocated out of Vieques and allow the navy access in perpetuity and that if people are killed "oh well" it is our duty to the USA. Another extremist of statehood overcooked.

                          I am also disappointed with your recycled statements that you have used in the past to debate right wingers. I am a moderate and I agree with many things in the left. You are barking at the wrong dog. I have said from day one that I would accept a Euro style of government with the adequate mixture of capitalism and social programs. There is no point in trying to paint me as a right winger by regurgitating your memorized lines of left wing dogma. I have also said at nauseum that capitalism is evil. In this system only the smart and talented survive. The less talented and those with LD stay behind. However, I will not give up the system for socialism. In your system everybody would be slow----------- Fast horses are not allowed. Therefore one must live with the lesser of two evils: capitalism with a well designed network of social programs to help those who are less fortunate.
                          Suki: Stanley then you don't really believe in the individual only...and don't mind taxes for the 'less fortunate'? Fine. MIxed economy you believe in. Then why attack people who just want all to be treated humanely. Why not go and deal with the AR types who don't want any socialist reforms and want a big 'non-catholic' btw, church with state one together ruling our lives. And no gov't involvement in anything....just businesses and church dealing with everybody imposing their religion on everybody and since they are PROTESTANT Christians in the power positions they can monitor the non-protestant religions lack of morals. Idol worship etc. of cATHOLICS. You are new to this site Stanley and might not have read all the debates going on in here. Therefore, you don't know who you are flocking birds of a feather with. Do some research on the extremist positions some of these pro-statehooders hold, and I think you will be better informed and just represent your own view and no one else's.

                          If you think what we know is minutiae, and what we think comes from defective brains, I suggest you don't interact with us anymore. You would be an elitist person. If you are not an elitist then stick to the subject and don't boast how much smarter you are than anyone else in here. It is a turn-off.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Suki:

                            I was not claiming to be smarter than you. I was defending myself from the LD remarks the two of you made. BTW, you said I associated you with Arab terrorists, but in the past you have associated my position with Timothy McVie. You are projecting!

                            I pay a lot of taxes for the provilege of living in freedom (PR or USA). I don't mind the use of my money to help the homeless and less fortunate. My main argument with you is that I fear losing my freedom to a system that would not allow me to do my own thing.

                            I went back and read the article Einstein wrote in 1949 "Why Socialism?". It is quite short and this is the very last paragraph:

                            A planned economy as such may be accompanied by the complete enslavement of the individual. The achievement of socialism requires the solution of some extremely difficult socio-political problems: how is it possible, in view of the far-reaching centralization of political and economic power, to prevent bureaucracy from becoming all-powerful and overweening? How can the rights of the individual be protected and therewith a democratic counterweight to the power of bureaucracy be assured?

                            IMO Einstein's socialism was still in an infancy stage. He was concerned that a planned economy could crush the rights of the individual with an "all-powerful" bureaucracy." In fact, Einstein hated the Soviet system despite his own personal dream of Socialism. In the end this man without a homeland became a US citizen and not a Soviet citizen. However, he knew of the evils of capitalism and recognized that the weak and less talented had no chance. He struggled with the same issues I do whenever I encounter a socialist. How about my freedom? How about individual rights?

                            BTW, you are correct-------- I have no relation to the religous right at all. I do know some American Protestants don't think much of Catholics, but I didn't know this was a problem in Latin countries.


                            Los recuerdos suelen
                            Contarte mentiras



                            Stanley

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              In 1995 U.S. multinational corporations profited an estimated $13.7 billion from the United Kingdom. Profits from Puerto Rico $13.3 billion Ratio 1:1

                              Suki:

                              Didn't see this the 1st time. It appears that the consumer oriented Puerto Rican loves to spend his or her money at shopping malls with stores like Penneys, Macys, ect, ect. Obviously USA companies see PR as bonanza now that Puerto Ricans are able to shop so much. Have you been to PLaza Las Americas?

                              In fact my wife always tells me that shopping in PR is so much better than in the USA. She loves the fact that one can find anything that is available in the mainland plus the local stuff. Of course, the food is way better than in the US. I had no idea we Puerto Ricans had so much buying power. Of course, in England one finds many locally owned stores therefore the US companies make less.



                              Los recuerdos suelen
                              Contarte mentiras



                              Stanley

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