Capitalism is all about keeping poor people screwed over financially forever..

[Suki]

Here are the classic questions....

How? By having one group of people Capitalists and owners of the means of production live off the surplus value of the workers. And by controlling resources, land, technology (intellectual and material products and services IOW R&D), and keeping it in exclusive hands. Employers try to hire workers for the least amount possible to maximize profits.

Where? They do it by keeping the concept of private property private. Lol. For use and abuse by those lucky enough to be either inheritors of wealth (40% of all wealthy people inherit their wealth in the USA they don't acquire it through their own merits, the other 'wealthy' if self made do it through using their 'connections' and their 'cultural capital' and having access to huge loans and venture capital and startup capital).

When? When do they screw the poor people over? Simple. Anytime they can and as much as they can and still legally get away with it. Usually when Fascist mentality types are in power.

What? Yes, they can screw the people over. That is the purpose of profit maximization. To live off the majority who are not the top 1% of the wealthiest. Why some are wealthy and others aren't and how consistently the poor tend to remain in poverty and the rich tend to remain rich is interesting...and well analyzed. If interested in a list of how it happens....continue on.

Why? Because capitalism is about that. CAPITAL. And not human justice. It is about matter and products and productivity and consumption and production..supply and demand and competition. Not about equity, human needs, justice or fairness. No. But it is combined to consolidate one small group of people's power and wealth over the needs of the majority. Where is the evidence? PLENTY. Usually the EXPLOITED vs. EXPLOITER always have a conflict of interest. It is based on power relationships. And the concepts that economic power and social privelege are interlinked.

What is capitalism based on? At its core it is about selfishness and keeping what is not one's right to keep (the mass labor of many millions of people) in the hands of select individuals. These individuals are not geniuses or kings or divine beings. NO. Business brilliance? Lol. compared to what Physicists with smaller salaries? Professors and bright people from all walks of life? No. It is about who is the one most willing to be the most competitive and selfish and usually ruthless of the bunch. Some feel guilty about their wealth and give many millions of it away to charity. That way they feel their lives of opulence are not all about themselves and vanity. In the final analysis they too will be dust in a grave eventually but while they are here, they want to think they are a little more 'clever' than the people who work for them that struggle with the fear of not eating and being thrown out into the street.

I don't expect the Opp McVeigh to show up. This thread is just a little contrarestante to his non-sense. Lol.

[Rivera33]

Capitalism bring Success to the Majority

Hi Suki, should we take from the rich to give to the poor? Capitalism is also a tool for the poor to become rich. There are many stories to support this.

Some folks make bad decisions which hurts them financially.
Capitalism is their greatest hope! Having successful people to advise them is a great thing. Socialism and liberal government has, and will never, do anything for them for sure! Only a free economy may help the poor!

[Suki]

Rivera33,
I really strongly disagree with you. I think capitalism if it were a great system would be able to provide the basics to ALL its members of society without a problem. To this day 40plus million of people remain uninsured and or underinsured for health services in the United States. 18,000 UNNECESSARY deaths occurr every year in the USA due to people's inability to pay for medical treatment. In many states and communities small businesses have VERY HIGH attrition and personal and business bankruptcy rates. People don't own their home outright or their newer vehicles banks do. They have to pay the bank off and the mortgate companies off, if they lose their jobs due to outsourcing and other factors that rule capitalism and multinaltional corporations profit making ventures....that is all she wrote. They get behind on the mortgate payments and car payments, the repo process starts and the foreclosure starts. Another statistic to capitalism. Same with rentors with evictions, all dependent on jobs. The Success Stories you hear about so much are based on the same premise as who can be the most selfish and ruthless in business. To me that is Anti-HUMANO and does not promote social responsibility or values. It is all about individual acheivement and it is not an equal playing field.

Do you want me to post painstaking years of studies in sociology and anthropology and political science and economic trends info here that have tracked minimum wage workers and others and their abilities to 'social' climb and lift themselves out of poverty. I am not interested in the few success stories compared to the huge amount of the washed out business ventures and small businesses vs. the big monopolies and their strategies to dominate a market.

It is a big lie. Less of a big lie in the USA and much more of a big lie in Mexico, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic and in many nations who deal with dumping, and outrageous inflation and double digit unemployment and low wages and NO social security, public housing for the poor and welfare AT ALL. That is why in Peru or Mexico you see kids selling pencils in the street until 1am in the morning trying to eek out a living. Aint no day care for them, free educations, basic food and shelter. That is the raw capitalism in action. And if you Rivera33 want the USA to go back to obsolete sink or swim capitalism and have the economy crash badly like it did in the Great Depression due to the vagaries of the MARKET economy, be my guest. Capitalism does not function in many places because of many reasons. But this fairy story of success is just that. Un cuento de adas. I am interested in giving working people what they truly deserve. POWER over their labor and their ability to get their most important needs met. SUch as FOOD, shelter, and MEDICAL attention and affordable and high quality educations, without distinguishing if the parent or parents has big buckaroos or not. To me that class snobbery and privelege is not healthy. There will always be a very small amount of very wealthy people in any given Capitalist dominated society compared to a vast majority of the poor and underclass. WHY is this so Rivera33? If you think the vast majority of the poor or working class is either 1) dumb. 2) lazy or 3) doesn't know how to become middle class or rich. Then I would say you are part of what I call the brainwashed. Lol.

Have a good week Rivera33. And by the way, be my guest and tell the public that votes that you want to cut off social security checks, affordable public housing for the poor, subsidy programs to pay heat and electrical bills, WIC programs for food for poor mothers, get rid of the welfare COMPLETELY. There aint much left anyway. In my state if you are single mother with kids under age 17 you only get the bare minimum for survival and only for 24 months after that. No more for the rest of your life. And the programs for job training, education and etc. and trade school tuition help etc. IT IS ALL BEING CUT off by such good hearted republican folks like you are Rivera33...such fine Christians who want to make sure all these people get what they deserve...struggle and holes in which they feel completely powerless under a system who loves to pay them crap salaries and no benefits for themselves or their little babies and children. Go feel good about what you stand for Rivera. I would be ashamed to call myself a Christian and back some DEVIL satanic oppressive way of coping with the problems of the poor.

And I have heard the cheap rhetoric before. LEt the churches help. The churches are overwhelmed so are the food banks. Why do you think that man from FEED THE CHILDREN is on the tube constantly with the tales of woe from the poor and uninsured families in Appalachia and in ghettoes allover the USA? If the problem were solved and eradicated they would close up their charity work. They can't. They have too many families with no jobs, and no resources. They are overwhelmed. Do you want the government to abandon all the 'liberal' programs and let sink or swim crap takeover? Do YOU? Do you want to see the problem get worse and worse? What does the average worker with a high school education make in certain states? Do you know? And their cost of lving expenses? And the costs of raising little kids with no second income? Or the cost of two parents working and making not much each and having to pay for some strangers to take care of the little ones? I am so tired of these platitudes by the religious right. What they need to do is not spend one dime more on some new stained glass windows and help the people in their community with some SOCIALIST programs. LIKE WHAT? Like as a community provide child care, and as a community respond to real needs, dental bills, doctor bills, education, getting people's HUMAN NEEDS MET. I don't respect churches who have pastors and priests living in opulence while they have plenty of parishoners pasando hambre. HIPOCRITAS TODOS.

Rivera you will say what is so predictable. Liberal programs rob the poor of self-esteem and the ability to do for one's self. Hard work and respect for etc. etc. The truth is something different. NO ONE WORKS HARDER THAN POOR PEOPLE. NO ONE. You will fail to solve the problems of class struggle because you think the individuals themselves that live in poverty are the problem and you and your conservative cronies love blaming individuals for what really is a SYSTEMIC problem. Capitalism NEEDS people to live with the insecurity of unemployment and eviction and destitution. It is the sword that hangs over all poor people. They think (the poor) " No puedo organizarme y protestar todo esto. El salario malo, las horas largas, no poder llevar mi hijo al doctor, no poder ahorrar para un mejor hogar. NO ME PUEDO quejar o me botan. Donde voy despues? Tengo que aceptar esto. No puedo forzar un cambio." And meanwhile they are there at 6am to whatever time making their $6.00 an hour and hoping they can pay the bills and the taxman. Meanwhile the owner of the business is golfing, and smiling and calling his broker and checking his stocks and getting in his Mercedes. He doesn't have to be anywhere at 6am he is sitting pretty and planning his Saturday night date with some tipa with artificial breast augmentation surgery and with dark roots and a blonde bleach hairdo. LOL. Is the dude a better human being than the worker? No. So why does one have the money and the other doesn't? You tell me Rivera why does one have the cash and the other has the sword of eviction hanging? YOU TELL ME.


Suki.

[Edited by Suki on 8th September 2004 at 01:34]

[caicos]

A question for Suki

I grew up poor. Both of my parents worked, but did not make much money(this was before there was a national welfare system). It was a struggle for them to keep a roof over our heads, food on our table, and clothes on our backs(always second-hand or hand-me-downs). My siblings and I did not want to struggle and worry about these issues in our adult lives so we took advantage of the FREE public education offered to all children in the US. We each worked our way through college(it took me 10 years to complete because I could not go full-time or straight through due to work). I teach school. I waited to start a family until I was financially solvent. I do not buy things I cannot afford. My house and cars are paid for because I didn't buy things I could not afford, did not buy a huge house because others were, nor did my spouse and I buy fancy cars. I pay my taxes and would ask you why it is my responsibility to take care of those who do not take advantage of the opportunities offered to all, do not wait to have children they can afford to take care of(birth control is free in my county for anyone who wants it), and do not use their money wisely when purchasing items? Giving people something for nothing does not help them, it just makes them expect more. Many of my students come from horrific backgrounds due to poverty and lack of parental supervision(I don't know why this is since their usually single parent does not work and is home) and have no concept of a work ethic. They even laugh at the working "stiffs". The only thing they know is that they should have the same things as others do, but they don't know that others work for their things. We are doing way more harm than good by not teaching youngsters that you have to work for what you have. I am much more willing to help the working poor, than I am to help the third generation of a welfare family. Btw check out the statistics on generational welfare, it's amazing how many never improve their situation.

[Suki]

Caicos, first of all thank you for responding to this thread and joining pr.com to do it. I appreciate your input on this issue. You are using personal situation information to explain an entire global economic system. I find that not valid in the least. You grew up in the USA and most people in the USA have free educations, that btw the Republicans are undermining as we speak. From what I gather from your argument you are stating that people who can't make a living and improve their circumstances in this society is due to lack of work ethic and values that are disfunctional and has nothing to do with the efficient and wonderful capitalistic system in the USA is that right? Correct me if I don't understand your points.

So, Caicos tell me how the concept of profit works? And when you can explain to me what it is adequately, I would then like to know how does human labor fit in with the generation of wealth? I await your kind input. You failed to address the issues of who has access to certain advantages and others don't in this society and why class struggle exists in the first place. What is it's purpose? Or do you think certain individuals are the way they are due to what? Genes? Environment? Does that explain the vast lack of opportunities for many not only in this society of the USA but globally? Since you are a teacher, I will expect an adequate answer to that.

Caicos I will quote you:
"Giving people something for nothing does not help them, it just makes them expect more. Many of my students come from horrific backgrounds due to poverty and lack of parental supervision(I don't know why this is since their usually single parent does not work and is home) and have no concept of a work ethic. "

I agree with the concept of not giving people something for nothing. That is why I don't believe in corporate welfare and people who live off inherited wealth, and wealthy people who use the threat of eviction and being destitute as an incentive to keep working people afraid of organizing a union and bargaining for their rights as productive members of society. What exactly do rich people do Caicos that poor people who work 40 to 50 hours a week don't do? Lol. I see they golf a lot, they have a lot of meetings with people who buy their groceries for them, and clean their homes and secretaries who pay their bills for them. Do you really believe no matter how many hours a week Bill Gates or Roberto Goizueta put in at the office that they alone with the sweat of their individual labors generate BILLIONS of dollars in wealth? Do you? There are only a certain amount of waking hours for all of us human beings in any given day and week. So tell me why some control and HAVE more income than others? What is it based on? Intelligence? Genius? What? Don't dodge this question.

Now after you answer the first set of questions. Please analyze what you did to lift yourself out of poverty. Education. Work. And access to certain things. Have you analyzed what public education is based on? What concept it comes from? Does it come from Capitalism and a family's ability to pay? Or does it rely on the premise that all people are deserving of access to knowledge and intellectual development and that a modern and civilized society that values educational opportunity for all approves of using PUBLIC funds (which means the pooled wealth of all working and contributing adults of any given society) and they use the government to distribute this adequately. Public education and all its vast accomplishments and so on does not come from CAPITALISM. It comes from SOCIALIST concepts. Obviously it provided you a way out of deep poverty and helped your parents have hope in their children doing better than they did in society didn't it? Socialism in action again. Lol. Your turn. I am waiting for your answer. See debate is fun isn't it?

Suki

[Edited by Suki on 10th September 2004 at 02:12]

[Sedona]

Capitalistm...

There's a reason why Capitalism is based on a pyramid shape model; 1% super rich white on top, middle class,largest but shinking; and poor slaves (dark skins)and growing at the bottom. Yes, many of us make it into middle class but not without holding down a couple of jobs so that our kids can attend college or we buy a house. For this we have to feel greatful...thank you...thank you...thank you...you rich Capitalists.

This is the richest country in the world. I want to say thank you when the rich take less and allow me to have just one job to support my family, raise them to fullfill their greatest dreams and their greatest potential. The rich are staving us in the back and we have to feel greateful and thankful...What kind of kool aid are you drinking?

Sorry...I'm new here.

[JaneMas]

Suki, I have a lot of respect for what you say and believe in. This in no way has the opposite view for the person whom you responded to. Simply that I agree with you 100%.

Many people refuse to understand the poverty level rose when the companies went overseas. Overseas because of unions demanding healthcare, pensions, dentalcare and training for Amercian workers. So what happened? Less labor work produced more unemployment, poverty, etc., while the wealthy became richer and richer overseas by paying 75 cents an hour to people in places like D.R., Brazil, India or wherever they couldn't find unions. Every American has a right to be paid a decent wage for his/her labor, a right to healthcare and be provided an excellent education, not be underpaid, denied healthcare and have the worst educators in the country. Minumum wage is a joke! We have reached the age of Individualism.

[Edited by JaneMas on 11th September 2004 at 00:28]

[caicos]

Suki,

Somehow I managed to leave out the first part of my post(I'm technologically challenged!). The beginning should have said that in some ways I agree with your arguments against pure Capitalism, but that neither system(Socialism nor Capitalism) in its present format seems to be the answer. My personal experience was an attempt to show that each system has positives and negatives and perhaps the best of each might be a more workable economic model, i.e. state funded education for all - Socialism and taking advantage of school and a good work ethic - Free Enterprise System. The other point was not about the working poor, which I state I am willing to help, but against those who choose not to take advantage of the opportunities offered to them, and then continually expecting the state(taxpayers = workers) to take responsibility for their actions and inactions.

There are many areas that I think Socialistic ideology is appropriate - education and health care are two good examples. I also think the Free Enterprise System has positives - mainly if you use the resources available, you have an opportunity to better yourself.

I cannot really debate economic models with you, since my only knowledge is the basic Economics 101 college course from many, many years ago and my general knowledge of my own economic situation and how I am personally effected by changes in the US economy at large.

[Rivera33]

Response to Suki,, Sedona, Jane

Casioco, like some of us started very poor, he made many sacrifices as a child which taught him that there has to be a better way. You complain about ca0italism, the top 1%. I think all of you are intelligent and are very good at researching infor including liberal led infor by liberal professors and politicals. I wish that you would research conservative writing about making it in America.

All of you could start a bisiness, some of you have done that already, and become successful, or in the 1%. Then you would see the truth! The government did not give you anything, they want to punish you for being successful, and you would become part of the top 20% that pays 80% of the taxes. The socialiststs preach that everything should be equal. Their achievemnts, from what I see, are like Cuba, so systems, no systems, and they steal your dreams to create something that will make you wealthy.

John Kerry, some of you want to be President, also attacks the rich, to impress you into voting for him. George Bush continues to encourage all of us to learn, produce, and lead yourself to success! That doesn't mean that we will all become millionaris. Succes to me is making any increase in success without getting anything from the government. You may help an invertor become rich by buying a small share of his mission for success. Which one of these will energize you to become more successful. Don't get mad at the rich guy who makes an investment that helps you feed your family. Why don't some people get this!

When I was in High school getting good grades, my friends would laugh at and call me names. Today, some of these guys are in jail, out of job, and telling me that I'm lucky! Lucky= a losers excuse for someone elses success! They know, that you and I, and many others spent many evenings and weekends in college classrooms with the hope of reaching our educational goals to achieve our personal goals we had written.

As a formerly poor Puerto Rican, I don't understand why some are waiting for the government to give themn something for free, hurting the rich to help you, and following a line of economic thinking that won't bring you any success, in a country with the most business and job opportunites available in the World. Study Oriental immigrants and see how successful they becme without depending on government. They kiss the ground of the country that will allow them to achieve their dreams and long term family success!
God Bless Everyone!

[Suki]

To Caicos and Jane and Rivera33

Caicos,
Have you ever analyzed who has access to business loans and what you have to have in order for a bank to give you a business loan? Do you need collateral? To write a convincing business plan? Personal and or business contacts in the community ie CONNECTIONS? And to be pro-profit and pro-capitalism and to back these concepts to the hilt to further one's own individual goals.

Many who follow these 'rules' of capitalism come up with the lies that Rivera has. He fails to address that in order for you to profit and be part of the 1% you need to exploit labor. And in order to exploit labor you need to pay people less than what they produce. That is part of the reason why so many multinational corporations leave the USA to open shop in other countries with much lower labor costs than the USA to maximize what they can keep for themselves and their stockholders. This undermines the workers abilities to bargain for benefits and better working conditions and keeps wages lower than they should be and services that should be free for all under pressure such as HEALTH care and PUBLIC education. Right now in the USA in public education one has property tax as a base for funding. This is naturally discriminatory. Its purpose is to not have a level playing field in educational quality and opportunity between the wealthy and the working class and underclass. How is this justified in the USA? Well by the rhetoric that is class conscious and discriminatory that Rivera33 spouts.

Rivera33 is a living example of the contradiction of the religious right. They believe in all people are the children of God and believe in Jesus and the Virgin Mary but the part in the bible that talks about "And the meek shall inherit the Earth." "Blessed are the poor" "and it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle and to enter the kingdom of heaven than for a rich man to do so" is ignored. And Jesus asking his followers to give up all their worldly possessions and follow Him is ignored as well. They want to get to HEAVEN, but live off exploiting poor people and backing the interests of the wealthy and the mundane here on Earth. It is not surprising. Lol. It is called HIPOCRISY. In religious faith and in practice. They if Roman Catholic are against "La teologia de la Liberacion", and want to have their cake and eat it too. They want comfort, riches, and social prestige, and to be the ones at the pearly gates too! LOL. WRONG. If you believe in God as they claim to do, they should start with giving up any ambitions of material comforts. And their dreams should not include new cars, new homes and dollars without end.

Now, in terms of Caicos---what exactly does Capitalism provide people? Besides, consumption, consumerism, and for a small group of people to find endlessly creative ways of living off the majority labor of either the world workers outside the USA or the majority of the middle class and working class in the USA? It provides a level playing field? To who? To poor, black kids in the ghetto in mass numbers or to the few who fight all odds and are exceptions to the rule? Again as a socialist I am against the exceptions to the rules as a legit way of providing lifting the vast majority out of squalor. Worldwide. Not just in the USA.

Well, we can study the basics in Capitalism. Such as "The Wealth of Nations" by Adam Smith. In which in an ideal capitalism, all competitors start off at an equal playing field, and based on performance and merit the most talented thrive. HAS this been true in present day Capitalism? Has it ever been true? Let us see what happens to those who challenge the status quo in any 'competitive market' or industry with a great idea and being the little guy? Lol. How about the movie "TUCKER" with Jeff Bridges based on the historical and true biography of Mr. Tucker of the "Tucker" vehicle who challenged the AUto giants of Ford, Chevrolet And General Motors? What happens to small and incredibly creative software companies who try to make inroads into Microsoft and IBM? And small Mom and Pop hardware businesses and grocery store businesses that take on Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Sam's Club, and etc.? Do they make it? Why not?

And the Republicans who promise low taxes, and small gov't and so many things that never occurr. They have incredible gov't spending deficits when in office. Especially in industries that don't help the voting and taxpaying public at large, such as 'defense spending' and 'arms' and 'bioweapons' ALL OF WHICH is coming back to bite them in the ASS. Because private ARMS and nuclear technology, and "patriot missiles" and etc. need many countries to live with war in order for them to prosper. And they all have their deep connections in the White House. Lol. They do. The republicans feel that spending money on universal health care, education, affordable public housing, EPA rules, global warming, environmental concerns, babies, poor people and families in general is wasted money. Lol. They do. If someone is a single mother, if a father is jobless due to outsourcing, if housing is high in many cities in the USA and the average worker spends 50% of their salary on rent or mortgage payments. WHO GIVES A DAMN!? They don't. The private market. (WHich aint all that private btw, will magically cure all ills!). And there are many fools who fall for this hype! And bold faced lying.

What is modern capitalism now?? In 2004? Has it eradicated world poverty? Protected the planet from environmental contamination and instability? Prevented freaky environmental damage related problems such as an abnormal amount of hurricanes in a small period of time? High mercury levels in the OCEANS and streams and rivers of the world? Has it prevented world hunger in unprecedented levels? Has it lifted working people out of squalor? Does it use child labor like 14 year old Malaysian girls making Nike shoes for crap salaries a day, so Nike stockholders can have record profits? All because American USA workers aren't willing to work 40 hours a week for $5.15 an hour and will walk away from an employer who tries to exploit them too much.
Suki.

[Edited by Suki on 14th September 2004 at 01:44]

[JaneMas]

Re: To Caicos and Jane and Rivera33

Originally posted by Suki
Caicos,
Have you ever analyzed who has access to business loans and what you have to have in order for a bank to give you a business loan? Do you need collateral? To write a convincing business plan? Personal and or business contacts in the community ie CONNECTIONS? And to be pro-profit and pro-capitalism and to back these concepts to the hilt to further one's own individual goals.

Many who follow these 'rules' of capitalism come up with the lies that Rivera has. He fails to address that in order for you to profit and be part of the 1% you need to exploit labor. And in order to exploit labor you need to pay people less than what they produce. That is part of the reason why so many multinational corporations leave the USA to open shop in other countries with much lower labor costs than the USA to maximize what they can keep for themselves and their stockholders. This undermines the workers abilities to bargain for benefits and better working conditions and keeps wages lower than they should be and services that should be free for all under pressure such as HEALTH care and PUBLIC education. Right now in the USA in public education one has property tax as a base for funding. This is naturally discriminatory. Its purpose is to not have a level playing field in educational quality and opportunity between the wealthy and the working class and underclass. How is this justified in the USA? Well by the rhetoric that is class conscious and discriminatory that Rivera33 spouts.

Rivera33 is a living example of the contradiction of the religious right. They believe in all people are the children of God and believe in Jesus and the Virgin Mary but the part in the bible that talks about "And the meek shall inherit the Earth." "Blessed are the poor" "and it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle and to enter the kingdom of heaven than for a rich man to do so" is ignored. And Jesus asking his followers to give up all their worldly possessions and follow Him is ignored as well. They want to get to HEAVEN, but live off exploiting poor people and backing the interests of the wealthy and the mundane here on Earth. It is not surprising. Lol. It is called HIPOCRISY. In religious faith and in practice. They if Roman Catholic are against "La teologia de la Liberacion", and want to have their cake and eat it too. They want comfort, riches, and social prestige, and to be the ones at the pearly gates too! LOL. WRONG. If you believe in God as they claim to do, they should start with giving up any ambitions of material comforts. And their dreams should not include new cars, new homes and dollars without end.

Now, in terms of Caicos---what exactly does Capitalism provide people? Besides, consumption, consumerism, and for a small group of people to find endlessly creative ways of living off the majority labor of either the world workers outside the USA or the majority of the middle class and working class in the USA? It provides a level playing field? To who? To poor, black kids in the ghetto in mass numbers or to the few who fight all odds and are exceptions to the rule? Again as a socialist I am against the exceptions to the rules as a legit way of providing lifting the vast majority out of squalor. Worldwide. Not just in the USA.

Well, we can study the basics in Capitalism. Such as "The Wealth of Nations" by Adam Smith. In which in an ideal capitalism, all competitors start off at an equal playing field, and based on performance and merit the most talented thrive. HAS this been true in present day Capitalism? Has it ever been true? Let us see what happens to those who challenge the status quo in any 'competitive market' or industry with a great idea and being the little guy? Lol. How about the movie "TUCKER" with Jeff Bridges based on the historical and true biography of Mr. Tucker of the "Tucker" vehicle who challenged the AUto giants of Ford, Chevrolet And General Motors? What happens to small and incredibly creative software companies who try to make inroads into Microsoft and IBM? And small Mom and Pop hardware businesses and grocery store businesses that take on Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Sam's Club, and etc.? Do they make it? Why not?

And the Republicans who promise low taxes, and small gov't and so many things that never occurr. They have incredible gov't spending deficits when in office. Especially in industries that don't help the voting and taxpaying public at large, such as 'defense spending' and 'arms' and 'bioweapons' ALL OF WHICH is coming back to bite them in the ASS. Because private ARMS and nuclear technology, and "patriot missiles" and etc. need many countries to live with war in order for them to prosper. And they all have their deep connections in the White House. Lol. They do. The republicans feel that spending money on universal health care, education, affordable public housing, EPA rules, global warming, environmental concerns, babies, poor people and families in general is wasted money. Lol. They do. If someone is a single mother, if a father is jobless due to outsourcing, if housing is high in many cities in the USA and the average worker spends 50% of their salary on rent or mortgage payments. WHO GIVES A DAMN!? They don't. The private market. (WHich aint all that private btw, will magically cure all ills!). And there are many fools who fall for this hype! And bold faced lying.

What is modern capitalism now?? In 2004? Has it eradicated world poverty? Protected the planet from environmental contamination and instability? Prevented freaky environmental damage related problems such as an abnormal amount of hurricanes in a small period of time? High mercury levels in the OCEANS and streams and rivers of the world? Has it prevented world hunger in unprecedented levels? Has it lifted working people out of squalor? Does it use child labor like 14 year old Malaysian girls making Nike shoes for crap salaries a day, so Nike stockholders can have record profits? All because American USA workers aren't willing to work 40 hours a week for $5.15 an hour and will walk away from an employer who tries to exploit them too much.
Suki.

I hate to quote what is already written except a few lines for feedback but in this case I'll make an exception! I usually have a drink on special occasions like New Year's or Santa Day, but I'm going to buy myself a nice small bottle of wine and read this post (I scanned). I'm already a drunk according to Eddie! Suki, you reinforced, clarify and confirm what I've been seeing all around me without political discrimination. The outcome is obvious. It amazes me how people can be so blinded by propaganda american style.

[Edited by JaneMas on 17th September 2004 at 10:52]

[Rivera33]

Suki: Further Response to Your Long Thread

I've been successful at achieving every goal I wrote down and worked hard to achieve. I remember living in a house that, when I took a bath, I could scratch the ice on the wall. We did not have a real hot water tank! Our old hourse still had a tank you had to light to get a little luke warm water. Baths were done quickly! My friends dosn the street had everything.

I have a public high school education, however, I did very well in school because I worked hard for it. Like some of you I had to learn English after already knowing Spanish.

I thank God that he placed in two beautiful countries where I was free to succeed and become a little more successful than many of my anglo friends that used to make fun of me for working hard and getting A's.

You see everything is a choice! If you fail the first time, you get up and starrt again. Many successful business people have failed many times eventually became successful. There are enourmous similar stories of success.
The 1% is a goal we should all have.

Suki's earlier post where she indicates that I have been brainwashed is news to me. Most of my teachers in my local high school were liberal. The counselors too, they told me I should aspire to be a factory worker. I told them I had bigges dreams than that! I proved them

I think those of you who hate capitalism are really saying that you hate the USA. Without capitalism we could not be the generous nation that we are. A place where, ever our poor, have a high standard of living when you compare them to poor people in other countries. I don't see any poor Americans taking an innertube to go to Cuba, Haiti, or thed Dominican Republic. I don/t see any Puerto Ricans also leaving for these countries. You shold thank God for putting on this soil! Learn to see the brighter, teach people how to become more successful, don't tell them to hate this country, taking from successful people who have made good decisions all their life to become successful is wrong! What you claim is the truth is not! That I've been brainwashed into success is a Blessing from God! Also, Our country is protected by the Patroness of North America, Our Lady of Guadalupe! Everything is not perfect here, but personal effort is usually rewarded here. God Bless All of you.

[Joshue]

not really.

Originally posted by Suki
Here are the classic questions....

How? By having one group of people Capitalists and owners of the means of production live off the surplus value of the workers. And by controlling resources, land, technology (intellectual and material products and services IOW R&D), and keeping it in exclusive hands. Employers try to hire workers for the least amount possible to maximize profits.

In communism is actually worst, because a fewer individuals have control of the means of production; of course they say it belongs to the proletariatat and is for the proletariat, but the proletariat finish raped. That is the constant fact, not only that, they have authoritarian control too. Bill gates do not have the right to create laws, it can influence politicians, but it does not have the power of one, he is not in office, get it!!!

Where? They do it by keeping the concept of private property private. Lol. For use and abuse by those lucky enough to be either inheritors of wealth (40% of all wealthy people inherit their wealth in the USA they don't acquire it through their own merits, the other 'wealthy' if self made do it through using their 'connections' and their 'cultural capital' and having access to huge loans and venture capital and startup capital).

By doing that, yes they exploit the workers, but there are unions, lawyers that are dying to sue any corporation, and there are other ways of compensation. In communism where the authorities have control of the law and means of productions, there is nothing like that. That is why in China and Korea to this day, have slavery type condition. [this has been corroborated by lucky bastards that escaped. For the proletariat my a$$.] Those cute speeches, that are heard by people with no individual thinking; or is it? a lot of, Koreans and Chinesse try to excape all the time, that is an individual act of courage, but well, the majority finish dead and never heard from again. The masses are created by a bunch of individuals is not one entity, that is the perfect social control instrument. Nature create us in an individual paradigm. We don't go to the bathroom at the same time We don't get hungry at the same time, We don't wake up naturally at the same time. We live our lives as individuals, because society is a bunch of individuals.

When? When do they screw the poor people over? Simple. Anytime they can and as much as they can and still legally get away with it. Usually when Fascist mentality types are in power.

Is far easier in fascism and communism to raped human conditions than in America. Any entrepreneur must always have the human variable in consideration or a lawyer in court, the government or an union can put him out of business if he decide to be a ja(ka$$.

What? Yes, they can screw the people over. That is the purpose of profit maximization. To live off the majority who are not the top 1% of the wealthiest. Why some are wealthy and others aren't and how consistently the poor tend to remain in poverty and the rich tend to remain rich is interesting...and well analyzed. If interested in a list of how it happens....continue on.

Why? Because capitalism is about that. CAPITAL. And not human justice. It is about matter and products and productivity and consumption and production..supply and demand and competition. Not about equity, human needs, justice or fairness. No. But it is combined to consolidate one small group of people's power and wealth over the needs of the majority. Where is the evidence? PLENTY. Usually the EXPLOITED vs. EXPLOITER always have a conflict of interest. It is based on power relationships. And the concepts that economic power and social privelege are interlinked.

What is capitalism based on? At its core it is about selfishness and keeping what is not one's right to keep (the mass labor of many millions of people) in the hands of select individuals. These individuals are not geniuses or kings or divine beings. NO. Business brilliance? Lol. compared to what Physicists with smaller salaries? Professors and bright people from all walks of life? No. It is about who is the one most willing to be the most competitive and selfish and usually ruthless of the bunch. Some feel guilty about their wealth and give many millions of it away to charity. That way they feel their lives of opulence are not all about themselves and vanity. In the final analysis they too will be dust in a grave eventually but while they are here, they want to think they are a little more 'clever' than the people who work for them that struggle with the fear of not eating and being thrown out into the street.

I don't expect the Opp McVeigh to show up. This thread is just a little contrarestante to his non-sense. Lol.

Well, this is extremely subjective, but it does have its merits. The part that communist don’t want to see is that people in communist countries are poorer that in a capitalist one.
They also ignored the human right disaster that those countries are, narrated by the lucky bastards that escaped, also the single point of failure that is if you give too much control to a selective few, and I may also add; Why every communist country need to keep their people behind walls? I have not heard of one, that is trying to escape America, actually a bunch of them live in America. They talk about the selective few of capitalism, but ignore that the selective few in communism have all the power in the world. They make the fascist mistake, but without private property. They became just like their worst enemy, the fascist, but at least with good intentions, without knowing it. and the lack of idividual thinking, is the perfect instrument that both use to commit atrocities.

[Edited by Joshue on 17th September 2004 at 13:00]

[PhiDaWg61]

CEO's = Politburo = CEO's

Under any system you will ALWAYS have the gorgers of wealth. I for one would rather deal with the devil I know than the devil i don't know.

True, this consumer society leaves much to be desired and the healthcare situation in the US is a farce. I like 85 other people at MSNBC had our tech jobs sent over to India. But at least our capitalist system keeps goods flowing, so I bought my own truck and am making 5 times what I was making as a tech. I wonder how long it would have taken me to do this under any other system.

[El_Jibaro]

Re: CEO's = Politburo = CEO's

Originally posted by PhiDaWg61
Under any system you will ALWAYS have the gorgers of wealth. I for one would rather deal with the devil I know than the devil i don't know.

True, this consumer society leaves much to be desired and the healthcare situation in the US is a farce. I like 85 other people at MSNBC had our tech jobs sent over to India. But at least our capitalist system keeps goods flowing, so I bought my own truck and am making 5 times what I was making as a tech. I wonder how long it would have taken me to do this under any other system.

Bingo!!!!!!!

In Capitalism, you get ahead for what you do, not like in CUBA and in NORTH KOREA, where only the Communist Party Leaders are the ones to live better off than everyone else.

By the way, Comrade Suki pontificates about the 40 million illegal aliens residing in the USA and having no medical insurance, but the poorest person living here in the USA lives 100 times better than the average Communist Party member in CUBA and in NORTH KOREA.

I wonder why Puerto Rican Commies are so eager to disrupt the elections in the USA ...