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Are Mexicans and blacks in L.A. on the verge of rioting?

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  • #16
    Suki.


    "...For instance, the press comes within the scope of ideology. Some people say that the press has no class nature and is not an instrument of class struggle. They are mistaken."
    -MAO TSE-TUNG


    (Esta tipa aquí lo dice pero no lo sabe. Es como tirar piedras a la luna, que nunca alcanzamos.)


    Cuidate Suki... y espero que te encuentres bien

    se te quiere de gratis... Guaili



    Comment


    • #17
      Amor a la Mexicana

      Wowwwwww…whatta topic!!!

      So many issues here.

      Greetings from Southern California. I was born in Mexico and raised since mi ninez in the state of California, a.k.a. "occupied Mexico" a.k.a. Alta California before the land grab by the the U.S.A. I am Mexicana on my mom's side and French/Algerian on my father's side.

      The Problem(s):

      Mexicans on the west coast racist against African Americans?
      First of all, I hope people know that California's Latino population also consists of at least one million Central American Latinos, mainly El Salvadorans and Guatemalans, a similar ethnic mix to Mexicanos, mainly Spanish/Indian and very few, less than
      1 or 2 percent mixed with African. So I am wondering if Cali's massive
      Central American community also stands accused of this broad-brush charge?

      Mexico:
      Few if any Afro Mexicanos. There are however communities of Afro Mexicanos in the states of Veracruz and Guerrero. Hence Mexicanos simply have not known people of African background. Similar to the Asian situation. Interesting that Asians in the U.S. in recent history, particularly in Los Angeles have had conflicts w/the African American
      Community and in Asia there are also very few if any blacks. Mexicanos and Asians simply don't know people of African origin.

      Language/Culture issues:
      African Americans usually do not speak Spanish, and then in too many cases of popular culture music and film, are seen being loud and using very foul language in public and in front of women and children. Hip hop artists do a great job in terms of reinforcing this negative stereotype. This is what Mexican immigrants see and then even worse is that their kids listen to hip hop and then start using foul language. Yes there are Mexicans who use foul language but it is not so mainstream. Mexican women, unless they have severe drug or alcohol problems or some type of mental illness are usually not loud and do not use foul language. They have been traditionally brought up to never speak this way. Some Mexican men use foul Spanish words but it is almost always street people or highly uneducated people, but these men almost never use this foul language in front of women or children.
      Media stereotypes are unfortunate and lead to misunderstandings.

      Complexities within Mexico:

      I hope some here realize that Mexican society is not only rooted in race, but much depends on class and money. There are a few Mexicans who are mixed with African blood, mulatto types even in Mexico City, but if they are well educated with money and well connected they are much preferred over Indian campesino people from Oaxaca or Chiapas. Even the lightest middle class Mexican family would prefer their child marry an educated, moneyed, well-connected mulatto to some poor Indian. And sometimes Mexicanos with greater amounts of Indian blood, as is often the case for those who have migrated north can be just as prejudice or xenophobic, being mixed with European and Arabic I have extremely curly hair but very light skinned. Do you know that Mexican men with high levels of Indian background usually don't go for me because they just think we don't match up. After 500 years of Anti Indian racism they feel more comfortable with women that look Indian. Indian Mexican girls in school called me names and harassed me for my curly hair and light skin, forcing my mother to put me into school for diplomatic children.
      (She works for the consulate.) So other Mexicans treated me this way and I am not black, simply a Euro mixed Mexican who looks very different from the average. Many Mexians in the United States come from small provincial farm towns where there is no access to education for many reasons, including financial. However, modern educated Mexicans in the two largest
      cities, D.F. (Mexico City) or Guadalajara have no problem with how I look because many are just as mixed as I am, and are also, in many cases, far more educated, more worldly and open-minded.

      IS IT JUST AFRICAN AMERICANS MEXICANS DISLIKE?:
      The last I checked, the Mexicans in California I refer to above, yes at least half the population coming from humble, provincial origins and mixed with far greater levels of Indian than anything else, in many cases, do not favor Asians or whites. Asians are just TOO different in their view, but they see whites culturally as being foul mouthed and disrespectful to women, children, older people and not having any traditional values. Many Mexican families would freak out just as hard if their child married a 'gringo.' They are simply not big fans of American culture. For example, they don't believe young single women should live apart from their families as many young white women and African American women do in the U.S. Why are Mexicans here? Like most people in the so-called third world, they need the dollars.

      CALIFORNIA REALITIES:
      It is not helpful when over 50 percent of African American voters in California voted in favor of 1994's proposition 187, a hateful racist ballot measure sponsored by anti immigrant whites which would have denied access to education and health care to Latino immigrants.

      It is not helpful when a respected former speaker of the California Assembly, and very progressive politician by the name of Antonio Villaraigosa, someone backed by unions and several major civil rights organizations runs for mayor of Los Angeles and is stabbed in the back by L.A.'s African American community who by a huge margin vote for white boy Kenneth Hahn, they were both democrats by the way, Hahn the more conservative one, his other backing came from white republicans in the suburbs mind you. So they elect their boy and BTW/he now jacked them because their mayor they elected flat out is not supporting the reappointment of the African American police chief Bernard Parks.
      A lesson learned hard for my African American brothers and sisters. So this racism or xenophobia cuts both ways now doesn't it?

      CULTURE AGAIN: The last I checked, I don't know race is as deep as culture.
      There are Mexican families who would be accepting of their child marrying an Afro Latino, fluent in Spanish, Catholic. All that means a lot.

      La Salma:
      I also can't stand Mexican soap operas, but it is not just a race thing with those soaps, it is also a woman thing. Notice there are almost no highly educated professional women in those soaps, no doctors or college professors or owners of large successful businesses portrayed. Women in Mexican soaps are prostitutes, maids, wives or nuns. Yuck.
      But thank goodness the top Mexican actress about to complete her major movie playing the part of Frida Kahlo, one of the most revered women in Mexican history, is Salma Hayek, not some soap opera pendeja who can't act with a bleached blonde likeness to that (slut) Britney what's her name. Salma is very mixed, half Lebanese, i.e. Arab and looks very Pan Latina, she could be from anywhere el Caribe, Brasil, Central America, even Argentina or Chile. She is from Mexico City where you find people who are really mixed, i.e. very mestisos.

      Hope this sheds some light on this topic for you. In the meantime, I very much agree with Suki, Afro Caribenos need to reach out more to the Mexican nation, but Mexico is also reaching out to el Caribe, no joke:

      MEXICO IS THE MOST IMPORTANT LATIN AMERICAN TRADING PARTNER OF CUBA, AN AFRO CARIBBEAN NATION. THIS IS THE FACT DESPITE A LONG ECONOMIC BLOCKADE BY THE EMPIRE TO THE NORTH, THE U.S.A.
      ten cuidado con esta
      coctelita

      Comment


      • #18
        Guaili lo dices y lo sabes

        Te acuerdas lo que yo dije en respeto a una tormenta que se avecina?

        It is important to also notice what Lacoctel said, it provides a different twist!

        Comment


        • #19
          Lacoctel, phew...you said a mouthful!!!

          And, very informative.

          Thank you for taking the time out of your day to explain a few things, but I must respond to your statements regarding African Americans and how they are viewed by many Mexican immigrants.

          The images you listed are very openly based on media exported images as well as those here in the U.S. Within the circles of African Americans, it has been the persistent discussion of how we're being viewed by other groups. However, within the context of your statements; you made blanket statements about AA's, but seemingly dismissed the same traits in Mexicans. I am not naive enough to believe that all Mexican men and women are pure as snow. That is a fallacy and a distortion of basic human nature. No people on this earth are that puritanical and it's very interesting that television has become the ambassador for many groups. Many African Americans are neutral toward the various Latino people, but when Mexicans are mentioned in conversation: The statements made are that Mexican men are always drunk. The people can't dress very well. They have too many kids. They live together like roaches. They're not friendly. They can't drive. They want to work in America, but refuse to learn English? But, many Mexicans think they are better than some other Latino groups and blacks? These are some observations and comments made by African Americans.

          Life experience, education and exposure dismantle such narrow views of people.

          As I said to Suki, there are commonalities within Latinos that I identify with. Family and a strong work ethic are also traits of many southern blacks.

          Personally, I've had many Mexican men and other Latinos of various ethnicities come on to me. From what a Puerto Rican guy once told me: He stated that I look like some of the women on the island. I'm not sure what the Mexicans saw, but I have dated Puerto Rican men before.

          It is my hope that the leadership in the black and Latino respective communities wake up and stop this nonsense. Both groups are discriminated against and this is only benefitting those who are inclined to benefit from such hostility between people of color.

          Comment


          • #20
            reply to truthangel

            The images you listed are very openly based on media exported images as well as those here in the U.S. Within the circles of
            African Americans, it has been the persistent discussion of how we're being viewed by other groups.

            I am glad for that because while people like snoop dog or little kim are getting
            rich, lots of nonAfrican Americans are seeing their attitudes and thinking that is African American culture.


            However, within the context of
            your statements; you made blanket statements about AA's, but seemingly dismissed the same traits in Mexicans. I am not naive
            enough to believe that all Mexican men and women are pure as snow. That is a fallacy and a distortion of basic human nature. No
            people on this earth are that puritanical and it's very interesting that television has become the ambassador for many groups.

            ***It is really true that the vast vast majority of Mexican women from Mexico,
            (DOES NOT APPLY AS MUCH TO Mexican American women), are raised to not be loud and especially not
            to use foul language. While very upset at my boyfriend a few months ago,
            I called a Mexican girlfriend (from Mexico), she is late 40-something, I was all upset and complaining, and wow she said something that Mexican moms (and dads) classically tell their
            daughters when they see us all upset about something "NO VALE LA PENA." It means
            all this talk is not even worth it, forget about it and move on to more important things. Another one we are constantly told is "NO HAGAS CASO" translated literally means that person that has
            upset you doesn't even have a case! Therefore, it's not worth it, forget about it and move
            on to important things. In other words family or friends do not want us to get all upset or
            worked up or vocal about stuff. In other words they think we ought to BE QUIET. This has
            its good points and bad points, many Mexican feminists say that being raised this way
            leads to oppression of Mexican women who end up having to take all kinds of abuse. The
            good points are, caribbean male friends, one being my p.r. boyfriend thinks Mexican women are great because we are so 'tranquila' (quiet).***

            Many
            African Americans are neutral toward the various Latino people, but when Mexicans are mentioned in conversation: The statements
            made are that Mexican men are always drunk. The people can't dress very well. They have too many kids. They live together like
            roaches. They're not friendly. They can't drive. They want to work in America, but refuse to learn English? But, many Mexicans
            think they are better than some other Latino groups and blacks? These are some observations and comments made by African
            Americans.

            Life experience, education and exposure dismantle such narrow views of people.

            ***But this is most unfortunate that Mexicans in the U.S. are viewed this way by African Americans, can't they comprehend that much of this they see is caused by poverty and discrimination, HELLO. Yes Mexican men often drink too much. I been in Cuba a couple of times, gee those Cubanos can sure put away lots of rum, almost on a daily basis, haven't been in Puerto Rico so I don't know. I have heard Nuyoricans and Island Ricans have had some serious problems with drug addiction and that is most unfortunate and I really hope if that is
            the case it is being resolved. Back to Mexicans, if they can't dress well or live lots of them
            in the same place, it is so easy to see that is a poverty issue. No they can't drive, do you think they were rich enough to have cars in Mexico? But African Americans need to go to Mexico, NOT T.J. OR CANCUN -- Distrito Federal a.k.a. Mexico City where you'll see lots of Mexicans rolling in Mercedes and Lexuses, dressing sharp in Italian suits, fancy watches,all that. And many of them know English quite well, or French.
            About the English/Spanish issue, in many places where Mexican immigrants in the U.S. work, there are supervisors who speak both English and Spanish, so they're Ok, plus they often don't have the time to go learn English because they
            are working two or three jobs -- poverty again. But lots of white people have learned some Spanish
            and I think African Americans definitely have the capacity to learn Spanish. Knowing two languages would be lucrative for and behoove African Americans as far as business or career goes. And the Spanish language is no "stranger" to people of African origin, just look at Cuba or Puerto Rico.
            There are also black Hondurans and Nicaraguans and Panamanians who Spanish is a first language for. ***
            As I said to Suki, there are commonalities within Latinos that I identify with. Family and a strong work ethic are also traits of many
            southern blacks.

            ***Yes this is true, and family and a strong work ethic also traits of blacks in the large cities,
            particularly those brothers and sisters who have converted to Islam.***

            Personally, I've had many Mexican men and other Latinos of various ethnicities come on to me. From what a Puerto Rican guy
            once told me: He stated that I look like some of the women on the island. I'm not sure what the Mexicans saw, but I have dated
            Puerto Rican men before.

            ***I understand, what I was referring to is Mexican men with lots of Indian blood seeing
            me as a serious relationship leading to marriage partner type thing. They don't think that is at all possible. Some Mexican immigrants
            with about 99 percent Indian background just look down on the floor when I pass them. Do you know why? I am certainly not a white American blondie, but they know I am what is considered a 'white Latina' and for too many decades in the new Mexican nation, it was against the law for Indian men to date or even try to talk to European Mexicans. The same goes for some South American nations. It is no longer outlawed, but unfortunately the attitude by and large remains the same among European Mexicans toward Mexicans that are mainly Indian. One of these days you need to read up on how the Indians in the Mexican state of Chiapas have been treated.***

            It is my hope that the leadership in the black and Latino respective communities wake up and stop this nonsense. Both groups are
            discriminated against and this is only benefitting those who are inclined to benefit from such hostility between people of color.

            ***Agreed.***

            MY LAST POINT REGARDING CULTURE:
            To many Mexicans, immigrants in the U.S. or Mexicans in Mexico, even Mexican Americans are disliked when they lose too much of the Spanish language or hang out at Mc Donald's too much,
            or listen to non Spanish music. I have seen them shake their heads and roll their eyes for years
            right in the faces of such Mexican Americans.


            Hasta Pronto

            Amira

            21st February 2002 17:11

            IP: Logged


            All times are GMT This thread is 2 pages long:

            [Edited by lacoctel on 21st February 2002 at 20:35]
            ten cuidado con esta
            coctelita

            Comment


            • #21

              Originally posted by Truthangel
              Lacoctel, phew...you said a mouthful!!!

              And, very informative.

              Thank you for taking the time out of your day to explain a few things, but I must respond to your statements regarding African Americans and how they are viewed by many Mexican immigrants.

              [i]Technically, there not the Immigrants

              Conciencia, te cojo bajando


              Comment


              • #22
                Truth Angel

                The way I see it, if we keep looking we will find more and more race problems. That won't solve the issues, neither will bringing them up and categorizing a group of people as racist, when in truth, it will always be only certain people or a certain area.

                In New York, where I was race, Some Blacks committed atrocities against Puerto Ricans, Italians, Irish etc. Yet, not all blacks should be penalizes for the faults of the few that committed the crimes. If we keep dwelling the negatives then negatives will arise and cause chaos. We don't want it in any race. We have bigots in all countries and in all colors. What we must do instead of spreading hatred, we must talk about the goodness of the people. We must talk about the things they do to help the other person.

                In all inner city neighborhoods, the new ethnic group becomes the target for racial prejudice. We must try to make others understand that it isn't right to act in a certain manner.

                Culturally, Hispanics are raised to stick to their own kind, some do go and marry or date someone of another racial or ethnic group, but the majority of us do stick to our own. We are raised to be proud of our people just as any ethnic group. It is easy to understand why many have problems but it doesn't make it right.

                Much love and respect!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Leticia, I agree with you, but....

                  There are distinctions of cultural pride and cultural arrogance. All cultures have a history and as such; feel compelled to defend it.

                  African Americans primarily feel that we should marry each other and IR relationships are just not conducive to loving your own kind. It takes deep thought in order to understand that philosophy, however, I'll admit to you that when I was in high school, I was absolutely crazy about Puerto Rican men. And so were a lot of my girlfriends. There were many Latino men who dated and married the black women in my area and it wasn't really frowned on by their families or most of the African American families. One of my closest friends is married to a Puerto Rican guy and she absolutely spoils him. When I dated Puerto Rican guys, I really didn't feel out of place and frankly, I felt a cultural connection to them for some strange reason.

                  The point is that this world is comprised of people from various backgrounds and many of these people are derivatives of two distinct cultures. In essence, we're all mixed with something, so why should we hate anyone, simply based on their race?

                  When truly analyzing it; bigotry is very ignorant.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    truthangel

                    You are right, bigotry brings hatred, and it is worst when directed on us. Everyone falls in one category or another. Everyone has been exposed to some type of bigotry in their life, it does not make it right and it does hurt.

                    This is precisely my point. We cannot continuously go around speaking or dwelling on the hatred of others because all it does is create more hatred. In order, to control and stop this venom, we (the people that suppose to know better) should try to put a stop to it and not add to it.
                    For in all reality we are all God's children.

                    Much respect!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Guaili la tormenta llego y se fue rapidamente!

                      Suki,

                      If get to talk to Guaili, let him know that the prophesy came true!

                      Saludos!

                      Comment


                      • #26


                        First of all many of you guys went off topic. The discussion was about Blacks and Mexicans rioting in L.A. I would like to clear out that the racism in Mexico between the minority of gapuchines (white european rule) over majority the real Mexicans (mestizos and Indians) is a whole different topic. However is all true. The same with the Novelas issue that someone mention.

                        The fact that racism exist in Mexico is not the reason why Mexicans dislike blacks here in L.A. Is goes farther than color. Blacks have won the reputation of been lazy, tend to be more dirty, and are to loud. In addition when they want to get an attitude thinking they are some type of bad ass, that's when the fight comes about. Mexicans dont tolerate their stupid ways of life here in L.A. Take into account that Black culture is totally different from Mexican. For example Blacks would tend to relate more to p/ricans or dominicans, cubans, because they are part of their culture. They hardly have any relation to the indigenous people before the european. Unlike Mexicans we are strongly related and aware of been part of our past. Which is a whole different history that of blacks. These differences echos in hard situations.

                        Plus in a country where diversity is so strong there would always be conflict between cultures. Like someone said even more when the economy is tight. Mexicans in the southwest in the long run are gaining more then what we loose. At some point we will have all power in the southwest and claim all this land that was taken away from us back in 1846. This is our ancestoral homeland where the Aztecs migrated from before arriving to Mexico, Aztlan.

                        There would always be one racial group in top dominating the rest. Obviously noone wants to be rule but that's human culture. remember we are part animal. The strongest will always rule. For the moment that position is been hold by Whites. Dont matter how much they want to help minority they wouldn't want to loose power. Now days our culture is been growing at a fast pace here in the southwest. Whites and all minority feel a threat that Mexicans are growing in numbers. Let's face it everyone wants to live where their people run things.

                        Blacks have nothing to gain to this nor any other group. You think blacks, Asians, whites, etc, are happy about when in the news they report on how much Mexicans are growing the fastes in the southwest? Of course not!!!

                        The rioting in L.A is in part by this. Blacks are been push away and been dominated by Mexicans everyday now. Obviously is nothing new but at the moment is been dramatically seen everywhere. Not just in the streets but also in the political scene. Mexicans remember the war of 1846 we love our culture and our strong and bright ancestor that once rule themselves and created and study the sky, medicine, etc. Build huge temples and were an urban people just like we see today. There's many blacks that claim Egypt belongs to them but in reality it didnt egyptians weren't black they were some type of Arab that we know of today. For the fact that they settle in the northern part of the african continent doesnt mean it was all african. Africans never built nor study as people in Mexico before the Spanish arrive. Our culture was advance in many ways. Mexico is the way it is now because what the spanish did. 300 years of labor and no education, despite independence we were still use as labor and werent allow to get educated. All this was destroyed by the Europeans ariival. Pay back is till to come. People in the southwest are feeling it and are been push back where they came from, the east. believe it or not is true and one day Mexico will get all the land back and would be a big country like it once was.

                        One other reason why there's conflict in L.A. Is agains to gain power. There might be word fighting that makes it seem that the only reason for fighting is because color but most of the times is not just about the color. Blacks believe they are something in reality here in L.A Mexicans dont let them do whatevr they please. thats what i have to say! email me mexicankaoz@aol.com http://www.mexicankaoz.net
                        http://www.angelfire.com/la3/mex

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Let me get this straight....

                          Originally posted by Mexicankaoznet
                          There's many blacks that claim Egypt belongs to them but in reality it didnt egyptians weren't black they were some type of Arab that we know of today.
                          Many Africans in the USA and Latin America originated from West Africa, Nigeria and other Central African nations. First of all, the only reason Egypt is an Arab nation now, is because it was invaded by Islamic soldiers centuries ago. However, there were civilizations all over Africa, some even with Islamic culture do to the same invasion Egypt experienced. Many perceive Africa as being covered with only small tribes of people and Europe brought every piece of civilization to that "savage" continent. It had cities and trade routes as far as China...etc before the Europeans. Like México, Europe just messed it up more, only bringing exposure to the outside world (To them, Europe was the only part of the world of importance.)

                          Originally posted by Mexicankaoznet
                          believe it or not is true and one day Mexico will get all the land back and would be a big country like it once was.
                          First of all, there were not Aztecs in California, Utah, Texas, Utah...etc Not all Mexicans are Aztecs, some belong to tribes that are similar to them, others are almost completely different. The only reason those states were a part of México is because they were a part of "New Spain" when they colonized those lands. When you gained independence, you just kept those colonial territorial lines the Spaniards drew, who ignored the different(However similar.) cultures of that region. There were even Native Americans in those regions who were treated badly by Mexican soldiers and were kidnapped by them, there were tribes who were conquered by the Aztecs and sided with the Spaniards, when they arrived, to fight against the Aztecs. So, what right, culturally, does México have to those lands? You seem to dislike European colonization, so why ask or take lands back that were just drawn up by the Spaniards you hate, and were not originally part of the Aztec Empire in central to southern México where Tenochitlán (México, D.F.) was located?

                          Also, México already is a big country, the largest and most populated Spanish-Speaking nation in the world, lol. However, I don't think only immigration could regain control of the past lands México lost in that long ago war.

                          Didn't a Mexican candidate loose in the last L.A. election to a gringo? I'm not trying to put down your people, because I proudly claim many Mexicans as friends and as our (Puerto Ricans) Latin American brothers and sisters, but the gringos, asians, blacks...etc are not going anywhere, just being out numbered to a point. Even if you overrun the those states in a few decades, (That means immigration would have to be at the constant rate as it is now or even more, which means more economic and political troubles would still be going on with more intensity in México.) that wouldn't mean those lands would just be given back to México while the USA gov't is just sitting there and doing nothing. Even if the President at that time is Mexican, there would be an outburst of opposition of the many thousands of different ethnicities in this country, which probably could mean another revolution or war.

                          I'm trying to understand things here; you're willing to allow constant economic and political horrors to take place in your ancestral homeland and a war to take place in the USA just so that lands lost in a war almost 157 years ago could be given back to México? What would you guys even do with it? With such political turmoil involved in such a tranfer of land, the economy would surely fail in those states and it probably would've already failed back in México to allow such emigration increase to occur, there would be no point, economically or politically for such a transfer except for pride! Are you willing to risk the lives of millions for pride? You have balls, my friend.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Im not going to go in further detail about the Egyptians. Of course there were tribes in African just like there was in the Indies ( which we know of cuba, p/rico, dominican,etc.) But theres a difference from tribes to "empire". Meso-American civilizations were much greater than that of any African tribe (there was really any civilization). WHy do you think all Europeans were so interested in what we of today as Mexico? If Africa had the same riches and structure why didnt they settle there? Been so close to Europe it would of been easier to control and trade, wouldnt it? What im trying to say is that there was never an urban center were people were more "civilized". Thats what stunned the Spanish to meet a civilization (aztec empire) that was urban with huge building center with trade, economy and law system. Our people of meso-america were the most brilliant in all the American continent. Most likely if werent destroyed by the Europeans, at the moment it would be a city state just like any in Europe.

                            You mention how there was any Aztecs in what we know of the Southwest. That's true. What we know of as Aztlan the homeland of the Aztec before migrating south is somewhere in the southwest and theres evidence that that place is located what we know today as Utah. However, since the "southwest" once belong to Mexico our mother land to all Mexicans we will make the much effort to claim all of it. Yes not all Mexicans are Aztecs. the point is that we are all half indigenous from Meso-American and we take much pride in one of the civilizations that expanded strongly through central mexico. We love their achivement, therefore, claim them as our ancestor. Even though our ancestor can also be the great Olmecs, Maya, Toltec, etc. The main point is that we take pride in all these cultures that existed in mexico been part of the same blood type of indian of brilliant civlizations that the euros destroyed and now we have to claim as righfully ours.

                            Wether we had before or after all the land that expands from cali to chaipas is not important. What is important is that after our independence those land were ours! yes there was many "mexican" soldiers that mistreated other tribes but lets remember that a Mexican can be an Indian, Mestizos and also Europeans that claim themselves Mexicans. And is them Euros who always had hatred to indigenous people and the majority of Mexicans today, Mestizos. We got the same right to those land just like the U.S has right to occupied land that white Americans dont even originate from.

                            Obviously it does not have to be specifically correct and perfect in reasoning the righful owners of a land. But i do tell you this Mexicans have more right than gringos. Especially here in the Southwest.

                            You mention that Mexico is already a big country. And i know that but if we can take back what also belong to us even better. Of course Immigration Helps and it helps ALOT!!! In order to gain land you have to have people to settle there and owning piece by piece. Populating the land in order to gain power.

                            Yes a Mexican lost to a gringo. So what? is the end of the world around the corner? That i know of no. Like i mention mexicans in the long run have it better because our people keep growing in numbers and gain more power sonner or later we will take the mayor's office then governor, etc. Get my drift? We have a long way to go still but we get closer everytime. Thats the thing that counts that we always keep advancing one way or another.

                            I think you are trying to put me down for the fact that us Mexicans have it in a long term process much better than the p/ricans. We proud to say we have an independent country and have enormous population in the southwest. p/ricans as i see in you are feeling threat to the high numbers of Mexicans in this country. Like i mention all minority's feel threaten by this growth.

                            P/ricans have no country just that 5 by 5 feet island that doesnt even match the smallest state in Mexico.lol.

                            Trust me When we take our lands back we have the right to decide in keeping these (asian, white black, etc.) people or expell them out. You actually believe that immigration doesnt help? just look at what the southwest was 50 years ago. Mexicans werent that much around streets or political speaking. Now There's less and less white and other minorities. Mexicans just keep growing and it's no big surprise we are just down South.lol What you expect? Now the childrens of these immigrants take action in what our parents fear in doing way back because of the segregation once existed. We are large in number and more aware each day of whats going on. And how our people are been mistreated. What is one thing a country has to have to ensure victory? Large Army. It's the same here in the SW we grow in large communities and gain power everyday. Immigration does help!!!

                            Are you stupid or something? Im not saying the U.S would just hand out the land like nothing! dont be ignorant. By growing in numbers we have a louder voice in deciding what we want for our Mexican benefit. If it has to go to war or a revolution then so it will happen. That's how much we Mexicans and Chicanos are aware of claiming the SW ours.

                            You think if all this happen we are going to care what the thousands of other racial groups say about it? Hell no!! Like they say on this country; Love it or Leave it! or a Mex Politician proclaim; Power is not handed to you, you take it!! You think Mexicans just handed out the Lands to the U.S for the **** of it? Open your eyes. We will die for our culture unlike p/ricans that sell their island for bomb practices for a couple of green dollars and a citizenship, lol. Thats been a sell-out! hahah.

                            My real concern is my land, my people, and yes my pride. But let me clear something to you my friend. You obviously dont know the benefits of running your own land and receiving the profits. (are u a p/rican? If so,) As P/ricans are been run by the U.S. Government I can see the ignorance of not knowing how will you benefit if your people would lighenten up and establish a Rican government to rule the Rican people. And really claim P/rico as a country which is not today. P/rico could just be like an American colonie that the U.S army exploits the land by doing warfare practices and just ruling over your people.

                            You mention:
                            I'm trying to understand things here; you're willing to allow constant economic and political horrors to take place in your ancestral homeland and a war to take place in the USA just so that lands lost in a war almost 157 years ago could be given back to México? What would you guys even do with it?

                            What we do with it?lol! Homie CAlifornia is the 4th riches state in the world! We have the biggest agricultural lands in all the U.S. We contribute the most to the government that what we receive back from it. Yes that would fall somewhat with a war but will recover. What im trying to say is that once we gain controls we the true owners of the land spoil on the riches and expand these riches to our father and mothers that suffere to this day due to white, euro imperalism.

                            You also mention:
                            there would be no point, economically or politically for such a transfer except for pride! Are you willing to risk the lives of millions for pride?

                            No point??? hahah god you are stupid! economically we get all the benefits and politically we run our selves. Something ricans dont know what to do since you guys are been run by the gringos in the u.s. and in p/rico. Now that very lame and prideless.

                            Pride is one thing that will make you be remember for many generations to come. I can see you are not familiar with the word pride, therefore, must be from a worthless culture.

                            http://www.mexicankaoz.net

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Mexicankaoznet
                              Im not going to go in further detail about the Egyptians. Of course there were tribes in African just like there was in the Indies ( which we know of cuba, p/rico, dominican,etc.) But theres a difference from tribes to "empire". Meso-American civilizations were much greater than that of any African tribe (there was really any civilization). WHy do you think all Europeans were so interested in what we of today as Mexico? If Africa had the same riches and structure why didnt they settle there?
                              Do some more research on Africa, and you'll realize that Europeans did settle there, still seek, like Latin America, to control the region's vast natural resources and that there were/are urban cities and Empires with large trade routes. It might not have been like in México, but a civilization and a city is what it is.

                              Originally posted by Mexicankaoznet
                              What we do with it?lol! Homie CAlifornia is the 4th riches state in the world! We have the biggest agricultural lands in all the U.S. We contribute the most to the government that what we receive back from it. Yes that would fall somewhat with a war but will recover. What im trying to say is that once we gain controls we the true owners of the land spoil on the riches and expand these riches to our father and mothers that suffere to this day due to white, euro imperalism.

                              No point??? hahah god you are stupid! economically we get all the benefits and politically we run our selves.
                              You act as if México was the only nation that suffered colonialism in this world. Sorry, my friend, millions have suffered the evils of imperialization and colonization in this world. Also, you're post is full of contradictions. You first wrote that you wouldn't care if there was a war or a revolution....now you're writing that when Mexicans take-over the SW, you'll receive full economic benefits. Ok, if there's a war or revolution fought because of those lands, it would most likely be on those lands. Do you know what war did to Central America or the Civil War on the USA South? It completely devestated those areas, destroying the little infrastructure and economic benefits that they had. It would probably take generations to rebuilt what was destroyed since you're willing to fight with the most powerful nation in the world, lol.

                              Also, all those USA owned-businesses and corporations, based in California or elsewhere in the USA, would simply move to the rest of the USA if México took over, leaving millions unemployed back home. The same for foreign investors who wouldn't think highly of doing business with a "Third World Nation" when they wanted to do business with the world's richest nation. If there was a war...even worse! That's how things really are, not how I believe there should be. I'm a realist, and this is what probably will take place. Think you could lift California's economy so easily after a war and/or many businesses leave along with much of the work force of other ethnicites? Then why won't you focus on lifting México's current battered economy...that would be the smart way to go, because if México is economically successful, that means it could better handle such a war or revolution or a loss of businesses in the SW.

                              How many Mexicans (In the USA and México.) believe what you beleive and what are you doing to gain attention to this Chicano movement?

                              Originally posted by Mexicankaoznet
                              We will die for our culture unlike p/ricans that sell their island for bomb practices for a couple of green dollars and a citizenship, lol. Thats been a sell-out!

                              Something ricans dont know what to do since you guys are been run by the gringos in the u.s. and in p/rico. Now that very lame and prideless.

                              Pride is one thing that will make you be remember for many generations to come. I can see you are not familiar with the word pride, therefore, must be from a worthless culture.
                              It's obvious you're intelligent and have a good sense of nationalism. I'm a Puerto Rican nationalist, so I realize where you're coming from. In my first post to you, I wrote that what I wrote was in no way in offense to Mexicans, since I have many friends who are Mexicans (Some live in México, D.F. and told me that many Mexicans in México don't like Chicanos) and see them as our Latin American brothers and sisters. However, I don't see myself superior to anyone since I'm a nationalist. You're name-calling really belittles your arguements; you might not care but you're the one who will look bad, not I.

                              It wasn't too smart either to write what you wrote about Puerto Ricans in a Puerto Rican majority forum. Learn something about Puerto Rico before commenting anything about it, because what you wrote obviously shows you only go what you hear on the news.

                              What happened in Jayuya in 1950, or in Lares in 1868? Who was Pedro Albizu Campos and Luis Muñoz Marín? What took place on July 25th, 1952? Partido Popular Democrático, Partido Nuevo Progresista? Barceló, Ferre...etc I can go on forever. I bet you don't know of any of those people, dates or people. (and probably will go on a search engine before writing you response post) If you did, then you post wouldn't have been full of ignorance towards Puerto Rico. (An African-American started this thread.)

                              I believe in independence and realize the benefits of being an independent nation, but we don't want to become another México or Dominican Republic, that's why we are doing everything carefully and strategically. The fact is, if Puerto Rico was a country, it would be the 2nd richest in per-capita-income in Latin America. (Since Argentina's economy collapsed.) I bet you will say, "It was because of the USA!" Look at the first 54 years of our USA colonialization and from then, 50 years now and see what took place that made that change and you'll realize, we mainly owe it to ourselves. We are a proud people, most in culture than nationalism, but many seek to change that.

                              We don't let anyone bomb on our land, that's why we've fought so fearlessly to make-sure they'll leave and that's why the Navy is going to in May of this year. There are sectors of our society that are sell-outs who don't care about their people but only USA $$$, but there's people like that in every country, that's why so many farmers in México are protesting and even stormed their Congress, because of NAFTA and the sell-out President you had at that time. (The bald-head one who fled with millions of México's money.) There's a traitor in every society, there's more in some than others. No one is immune.

                              I'm also very familiar with pride and what that means. I'm proud of who I am, where I'm from, but that doesn't mean I see myself to be superior to anyone. Take care and welcome to the forum. What made you come here anyway? Well, for whatever reason, stay clean in your arguements and I was only trying to seek more information and converse a topic you obviously feel so strongly about. No harm intended, adiós.

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                              • #30
                                I know Euros settle in African. But not in the number as they settle in Mexico. The Aztec Empire was build on what the Spaniards were use to all they had to do is take over the power. And they did. You know how the Spanish King had a hard time sending noble man elsewhere in America? They all wanted to be part of the richest of the Aztecs. They didn't want to be sent to Cuba or south American [except for the Inca they were also strong and wealthy] Mexico had it what they all want.


                                WAR
                                I'm well aware of the downfall of a war/revolution. It's obvious that in order to have something like this happen you have to plan it and have strategies right? I know that!!! My main goal is not to cause a war is to gain power politically and running our selves BUT if it lead to a war like i mention, then so be it. Now tell me this, when this country was a colonies of the English crown didn’t they were also bankrupt after the revolution? The difference is that when you own your own city state the people of that city state gain all benefit. Plus the colonies had an Allie which was France.

                                Things that benefit us Mexicans with in and out of this country:
                                Allies
                                Japan, N. Korea, China all dislike the U.S. These countries are not just a good source of good number of military but also a good market to trade with after a victory don’t you think?
                                Mexico is also a good source of soldier service and by the way California a big trade partner.
                                40% of all Marines are Mexicans.
                                We are gaining political power.

                                Now imagine one day we have total control of power in the SW [which someday will happen] there's without doubt that we be victorious, plus look at the countries we could have as our allies. We can offer this countries their controls of their Asian Island that are been run by the U.S., etc. The point is that these countries will love to see the U.S out of power.

                                You said you were realistic? Be realistic on this the U.S is loosing less and less allies everyday. Countries have a hard time willing to partner up with the U.S or in favor of the U.S. just look at what is going on now!
                                That's just the way the colonies did it.
                                The fact that you go to war with the strongest nation is never a for sure defeat. England at the time of the revolution was one, if not the strongest nation in the world, yet they were defeated.

                                About the businesses, that can easily be replace by the new owner of the land, Mexicans. IS not a big thing. That’s what we want them to do leave so we can take over. What's the point of a war if it wasn't for that? lol.
                                Like I mention California is already a strong place to make the money if it falls it can easily be brought up again. With good supervision.

                                When there's a war is not always guarantee to end up for ever bankrupt with good control of the areas it can be brought back up. Look at 1930's the U.S was in a great depression yet they went to war and what happen? Just lift up!
                                About Mexico is a different topic because we are talking about the SW. Mexico has no control over that. Mexicans in the SW do have control we live here and the future of it is based on us. We are growing in greater number and someday just take it with or without a war.

                                How many Mexicans believe what I'm saying? What am I doing to gain attention? lol. You mean the other way around. What did my fellow Mexicans did to get my attention.
                                Check these websites out there tons of us that are aware of it and most likely favor it. You think this was all just brought up by myself? lol. There's Mexican incumbents that are with it too.

                                Just to make you aware im not in this by my self.
                                http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERE...oshumanos.html
                                http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERE...Hermandad.html
                                http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=25920

                                I’m not going to talk no more about you p/Rican nationalism, etc. You’re right I not familiar and don’t know anything but I tell you this we got more to gain then whatever you guys want to do. And I’m not surprise that you are in a way against this Chicano movement or don’t believe in it, who ever isn’t Mexican wouldn’t be with it. Lol.
                                If you want more reasons of why this is happening and why would it happen and how will it be after trust I have all your answer. I can't go down. And you know what that means? For sure we will fight politically or war like until we manage our goal.

                                Just keep looking and jump from one page to another in the few links I post it up and you will see what im really talking about. There’s way to many sites regarding all this. American patrol is a big one that is seen the movement and feeling the outcome. Well enough of my word read for your self.

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