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The Bible is accurate but not perfect. Next topic: "Revelation"; express yourself.

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  • The Bible is accurate but not perfect. Next topic: "Revelation"; express yourself.

    Having concluded dialogue, about the 100% Factual interpretation, of The Bible, I wish to promote discussion on "Revelation" (to some it is most mis-understood).

    What is your Expression and Sentiment about:
    "Revelation" ?

    I wish to read through this chapter, before
    comment. In the interim, please feel free to
    provide us with your point of view.

    Working to create greater
    Harmony and Success between all God loving people regardless of Individual Faith...

  • #2
    Revelation, derived from the Greek word
    'Apocalupsis', was most likely written by John The Apostle, while being exiled on an island. Three main reasons are given for this
    1) Address the deviation of standard
    by Churches in Asia.

    2) Strengthen The Faith of Churches,
    at a time when Domitian, Roman
    Emperor at the time, made his
    'subjects' address him as Lord
    and God.

    3) Providing all generations with
    the future outcome of History
    including fierce conflict with
    Satan's Forces.

    Based on its contents, Revelation truly
    addresses its purpose; which explains why it
    was included when The Bible was written.

    I will provide this opinion, to stimulate discussion and greater understanding, on a
    difficult text:

    When reading any Historical account, one must
    be aware of varying conditions which can
    affect interpretation. For example; The Bible
    states of the high degree of persecution on Beleivers of The Church, after the life of
    Jesus. This can limit the author's potential
    with more emotion than rational and logical
    discourse. Another varying condition is the level of education, on most people, at this time. This means words which moved people to respond with emotion rather than logic was
    implemented. There are countless examples of
    elements which can affect interpretation.
    The 'Futurist interpretation', of The Bible,
    views "Revelation" , as prophecy concerning
    events in History that will occur at the end of this age. God's perspective in regards to our struggles with 'Satan', the third reason
    for which "Revelation" was written, is most relevant to our generation.

    The term 'Satan', is a simplified word which
    was used to warn people of negative consequence. The same for the terms sea beast, earth beast, and anti-christ. If the term: "Extreme Negative Expression" were to be applied during this early time, how can most people comphrehend its logic? Or the perplexity in regards to moral questionable issues? The Roman Empire, extended throughout Europe, Middle East and North Africa. Living under a lifetime of Tyranny,
    makes most people respond emotionally. It is not 'un-christian', to respectably define
    traditional phrases, for which today's world
    of high technology can seem less credible.
    How many people truly believe that "Angels"
    have wings? Or that Heaven is sorrounded by clouds, and Hell by Fire? As I stated previously, Heaven today can be accepted as a far more advanced time zone, with Hell having to do with re-incarnation to a certain degree. Follow up comment later. Joseph

    Working to create greater
    Harmony and Success between all God loving people regardless of Individual Faith...


    • #3

      You are forgetting two things in "your approach" to reading and understanding the book of Revelation:

      1- "First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." 2 Peter 1:20,21

      2- "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." Revelation 22:18,19

      Therefore, Jose, if you go ahead and interpret this book from you own subjective point of view, and if you omit or add anything from the book (and this implies the entire Bible, since it is its last book) in your attempt to make the book fit into your own philosophical frame of reference you are doing so at your own risk.

      "It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Hebrews 10:31 (Read the context, Hebrews 10:26-31.)

      desde_el_Jurutungo_de_Bairoa: Manuel Alonso "El Jíbaro"


      • #4
        El Criollo:

        Very good point; which is why I stated that varying conditions need to be undertood
        for clear interpretation. There have been
        3 general forms of interpreting "Revelation".
        I stated 'The Futurist Interpretation', as the one presented in the Bible I am using.
        Many people throughout History interpret
        Individual Quotes to entire 'Books Of The Bible'. Whether they have a degree in Theology or not. The New Int'l Version is a prime example. 'Version' is equivalent to
        Interpretation. Does this mean all of these
        people have 'sinned'? This is vague, and contradictory, El Criollo, and could be termed:

        "Double Standard" ; a parallel act which is limited on one side, without explanation or logic.

        I am also familiar with the Warning to the 7 Churches. The compromise of Christian belief,
        'sexual immorality' and false phrophets. This is why this Book is so difficult to interpret. However with keen logical approach it could be clearly understood. This is the reason I am interested in promoting discussion on this Book in The Bible. The ultimate decision is each within each one of us. All which I have stated previously: "The Greatest Commandment", adds prioritized definition to
        the purpose and benefits of loving God and peaceful co-existance. This would mean that if questionable(based on varying conditions) moral issues socially alienate people(at the very least) and even from God,
        then it would be catastrophic, contradictory,
        and self-defeating to the main purpose of
        Religion. This is why we have differences between Church and State Laws, which govern
        our moral and legal conduct. There are Individual and Religious Freedom rights. Peaceful co-existance with respect to our Individual Faith is most important. Do you believe Jesus knew of the turbulent times after his life on Earth? Is this why he quoted: "The Greatest Commandment". This is the foundation of our belief. Through rational and logical 'constructive' discussion, we can have better reasoning to
        make our own individual decision.

        "Zephanious" a phrophet during the old testament, also had a revelation. There is belief that the revelation in the New Testament was derived from. This is to say that John The Apostle or those who wrote The New Testament, knew of The Book Of Zephanious. This comment is presented in
        the New Int'l version. When The Apostle John
        wrote The Book Of Revelation, he was in prison, isolated on an island, under Tyranny
        for all of his life and extreme persecution.
        Spiritual Intensity is real, however human
        flaw(imperfectness, only God is perfect), along with other varying conditions can cause mis-interpretation for any man as author or as reader. This is why one must clearly understand that God has never written a single word of The Bible. It is a Historical account of Religious Freedom, which can be respectfully(rational & logic)
        defined. Each and everyone of us can be inspired by God or 'Satan'. Only rational and logical reasoning can provide us with the best approach. To discuss is different
        from implementation. We live in a World where most of us are educated, and can use
        common sense towards complex situations. Constructive dialogue has always proven most
        beneficial than emotional transgression.

        By refining the 'varying conditions' towards
        the main purpose(priority), of any verse, we can then isolate and discuss later in detail.

        Working to create greater
        Harmony and Success between all God loving people regardless of Individual Faith...


        • #5
          My heart, soul, and mind as a Christian,
          love God and believe in peaceful co-existance with those of different Faith.
          With this solid foundation the natural fear of God's wrath, is defeated with the power of love and understanding. God knows what is inside our deepest thoughts; which is why we are all individually responsible for our actions. To promote constructive discussion, in a rational and logical era, is understandable. God's logic and perception is perfect. This is why the element of Time, historically provides the ultimate truth of any action or in-action...
          I will provide additional information for
          those who question further respectable definition , of The Bible.

          These are the Four Major School Of Interpretation on The Book Of Revelation:

          1) The Preterist Interpretation
          2) The Historicist Interpretation
          3) The Idealist Interpretation
          4) The Futurist Interpretation

          These are 'Schools' Of Interpretation which
          for centuries have tried to best interpret

          The question however of compromising Christian Faith, promoting sexual immorality,
          and other historical accusations, must be answered . Throughout History including
          the Last Books of the Old Testament , many warnings are always written to minimize dissension and strengthen belief .
          This is understandable, even in todays
          World of vast Business, Organizations,
          and other Governing Bodies. In reference to varying conditions, which individually
          transcend any action or in-action, one must
          assert that in Today's World most Institutions have flourished because of rational and logical constructive discussions. The reason Religion has stalled is because it is very sensitive to talk
          about, question or analyze inconsistancies.
          The 'Bandaid' approach for centuries , did not fully explaining universal applications
          (for peaceful co-existance), and publicly respect denominational and other Faith differences. If done earlier in History, this would have saved and actually improved millions of lives. This has been most catastrophic. Only recent peaceful attempts in
          the last decades have actually brought
          the possibility of actual peaceful co-existance "to the horizon". Clear interpretation by many people can reduce
          the fear of our God, who loves his Creation...

          Judgement from love to actual transgression is un-questionable. However
          there are many complexities of this, to just simplify. I beleive it is an automated process created by God, related to re-incarnation to a limited extent. What is most important at this time (New Millenium)
          is to first reach peaceful co-existance and greater socialization between those of different faith can lead to advancements in other areas within our environment. This is
          a credible philosophical perception. One Hundred years ago , it was unlikely to fathom or even dream, actual accomplishments. The Step by Step
          Approach in most cases promoted our
          Historical feats.

          So why is all this rational logic not implemented into Religion? Specially towards greater fullfillment of "The first Commandment" (Mathew 22-34), quoted
          from Jesus Christ.

          Historical and Scientific Data has always been 'The Spear" of man into the future.
          Religion has played the important role as 'shield' of fear or for greater defense, and confidence . So if God can inspire
          countless of people to invent, solve complex problems, which accelerate our rate of technological advancement; why then would not that inspiration be available to any God loving person who wishes to do the same for Religion?

          This is a Step By Step rational and logical approach intended to promote constructive discussion and new ideas
          for many to benefit from. Best Regards.

          Working to create greater
          Harmony and Success between all God loving people regardless of Individual Faith...

          [This message has been edited by Joseph (edited 16 February 2000).]


          • #6
            In Summary:

            Religion, throughout History has been a very positive influence. My only concern is the continuous negative consequence, minor questionable moral issues have caused.
            Alienation; from social to transgression, which at times causes dissent from God.

            By promoting dialogue on this matter, ideas
            from many could make individual decisions
            easier, when relevant issues affect our lives. We will be able to respect each Individual moral decision, as one which only God, may pass judgement, instead of man.

            Please note: These are 'moral' , not legal issues, being addressed.

            If Religious and State leaders lessen debate on 'legalizing questionable moral concerns', then more Time could be spent on Health and Economic issues, which have greater effect on us all. Ultimately this would increase, in mass proportion, peaceful co-existance, greater acknowledgement and Worship of God, regardless of Individual Faith. Also more social and constructive activity between people of different Denomination or Faith,including less transgression.

            Would you agree that this course of action will please God, the most? And strengthen Our Goverment and Church?

            Does this facilitate our rate of Technological Advancement, due to greater
            Trust and positive inter-action, in the long-term?

            Is it worth for us, to constructively express sentiment on such sensitive issues,
            for these benefits?

            The answers to these questions are the main reason for starting this dialogue. Not to
            create havoc, further alienation, on these sensitive questionable moral concern.

            In Today's World, it takes many people, with constructive ideas, to promote positive change.

            Thank you for your consideration, and time.

            Working to create greater
            Harmony and Success between all God loving people regardless of Individual Faith...


            • #7

              How would you feel about the following
              clarifications, which could be improved
              with additional reference and discussion?

              1) Heaven; Highest Advanced Time Zone, with
              Automated Multi-Dimensional & Transcendent

              2) Pergatory(Hell); Both relevant to the
              Lowest levels of God's Creation.Automated.

              From this we can then attest:

              "Heaven" ; vast beyond imagination, comprehensive with restriction. Therefore Man would be incapable to 'judge' entry where there is Supreme complexity. Specially
              concerning questionable moral issues, which
              underline the reason for promoting further

              With greater emphasis on Health and Economical issues, such as: World Population,
              Food supply, Education, and more opportunity for Individual/Commercial prosperity, would then facilitate the Political and Psychological Transition towards
              Eradication of Disease unto rejunivation of
              cells. Within our great society elements
              can be 'streamlined' to realize potential.

              When there is greater harmony due to less emphasis on divisive questionable moral issues, as stated previous, more Time is available to solve problems which everyone
              can benefit.

              This completes this commentary. Feel free to
              address any issues raised for constructive discussion.

              Working to create greater
              Harmony and Success between all God loving people regardless of Individual Faith...


              • #8
                i'm interjecting again.

                opinions, genres, interpretations, slants, styles...all of those things don't matter in the long run. i think GOD just puts up with all those things because HE's so merciful and loving.

                what matters is what "Thus sayeth the LORD."

                we can try to twist the scriptures any ol' way we want. but in the end it's not what you think or what he thinks or what i think that matters. it's what GOD says.

                okay. i'll get off my soap box now.
                hee-hee! )




                • #9
                  Some really good post

                  You seem very knowledgeable. I could use some help over on as one is of the opinion that Satanism and Christianity are of the same coin. His arguemeant is that only Christianity has a Satan.

                  Anyway, you seem real mature in your intrepretations/clarifications of revelations. I will have to read the book as well as reread your post. I thank you very much for your dialog here.


                  • #10
                    From the Hebrew word Shattan, meaning: the adversary (the opponent). Same word as in Arabic: Saddam, which means "adversary".

                    Satan is the Greek pronunciation of the Hebrew word. Much like Porto Rico in the mouths of English speakers when they try to pronounce Puerto Rico.

                    The origin of the word is in Hebrew, so it is not a Christian concept per se. According to the Bible, in Isaiah 14 and in Ezekiel 28, Satan is just a Cherubin, similar to the ones Ezekiel saw around the throne of God in the beginning chapters of his book. Thus, Satan is just a creature (a created being) and not equal in power to God. The book of Revelation shows the final end to this creature: ending up in the Lake of Fire like the rest of the angels that followed him and the human beings that reject Jesus as their Savior.

                    Before Judaism, in Egyptian and other Middle Eastern religions, there was no notion of a Satan in itself, only good and bad gods. Even Greek Mythology shows this tendency. However, after the Jews were exiled in Babylon for 70 years (587BC), the Persians, after coming in contact with the Jews, created the notion of a Power Contrary to Good of the Same Equal Magnitude. Thus in Zoroastrism there is the concept of Light and Darkness of equal but opposite character. This concept moved out eastward and inspired later Eastern religions like Buddhism (300BC) and others. So, in the present you see this philosophy of Opposite Equal Forces in all Eastern Religions including their comtemporary siblings like the Occult, New Age, Spiritism, et. al..

                    Modern Satanism was not born until after the spread of Christianity, as a Contradiction to Christianity, among Pagans and Ex-Christians during the time after the emperor Constantine declares Christianity the Official Religion of the Roman Empire around 400AD; but it is not documented until almost the Middle Ages.

                    desde_el_Jurutungo_de_Bairoa: Manuel Alonso "El Jíbaro"


                    • #11
                      Thanks for your reply:

                      I have only tried to present a positive outlook and maintain priority("The 11th Commandment", quoted from Jesus Christ, Mathew 22:34),towards full thrust individual
                      quest. By simply eradicating negative consequence in our own lives, which Religion as well as other Environmental concerns,
                      precipitate, then more God loving people will succeed...

                      Millions have interpreted the Bible in private or in public. Every interpretation should have the same respect, rational and logical scrutinism. We are not 'in competition with God'. So as to state that: "God wins", simply does not understand the relationship between God & Men & Women.
                      This is clearly indentified in "The Greatest Commandment"' quoted from Jesus Christ, in Mathew 22-34. Now why doesn't anyone relate to this most important quote? Simply to 'nick-pick' without concrete definitive
                      references really just acknowledges ignorance to what is most important. If you refute that this is the most important verse
                      in Our Bible, then be specific and clear in your attempt to show what else is most important, other than what Jesus himself has stated. I have already made my choice, hopefully your Independent decision will be of Rational, Logical & Spiritual Foundation.
                      Love, Respect and Freedom Of Speech.
                      Best Regards, Joseph.

                      P.S. My E-mail is write
                      for additional information. Including
                      complete information on The Philosophical Environmental Report
                      which provides incentives for most
                      facets(areas) which affect our Environment. Longevity is most important. For our World;Environmental Pollution,Population Growth, Food Supply, Economics, System of Goverment and Standards Of Freedom(Speech etc). Individual benefits from Medical, Herbal, and Self Healing advances are possible. This is why Religious incentives
                      are just part of this study. Many
                      have written on E.S.P., I.Q. , and
                      Mind and Body Healing. Get The Whole
                      Story. This is a Win for Everyone.
                      Those few who promote un-substantiated
                      doubt, without direct face to face
                      communication, simply do not have
                      Historical, Scientific, or even the rational and Spiritual logic. If so
                      I am sure that they would take part
                      in a positive direct face to face
                      discussion. This study is not Religiously Judgemental. It is only for those who wish to expand their intellectual ability. Sincerity, Serenity, Courage and Wisdom are principles promoted in many professions.

                      Working to create greater
                      Harmony and Success between All God Loving People regardless of Individual Faith...

                      [This message has been edited by Joseph (edited 22 April 2000).]


                      • #12
                        It is interesting to read all of your comments and views on this subject, one that is complex. Nevertheless, we as Jesus loving servants do have a tendency sometimes to ask more than we can answer. That is ok and a good sign to others and ourselves. But to come to a conclusion we won't. For the only conclusion important to me is that which may happen in my lifetime or later: God wins. Now, do we question? Of course!
                        But let's not try to answer questions that we can't answer. Interpretations are not answers, but rather points-of-views by individuals or "schools" of thought. The ANSWER Was, Is, and will always Be.
                        God Bless.


                        • #13
                          ooh! i like that! i guess we should just wait until we get there...and then everything will be clear. i have some questions i'd like to ask...why this and how come that...etc. there's comfort in knowing i'll get to ask those questions in person...and i will get the answers, not my own speculations.




                          • #14
                            As I was walking in the wilderness I ran into this religious people...Joseph, Criollo and so and so and then I had to go back to the promise in verse 3 of the Revelation of Jesus Christ; Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

                            Closer to the promise land...



                            • #15
                              IT'S JUST A BOOK!!!!
                              A good well written book but still
                              JUST A BOOK!!!!