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The Anthropomorphic Fallacy...Voiced

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  • The Anthropomorphic Fallacy...Voiced


    Voice:

    You still cling to the argument from social anthropology that because some sort of religious belief has existed since prehistoric times, and evidenced by the various cultures that developed, like for example, the Summarian culture of Old Suma, that, therefore, belief or faith is an instinct that is natural to the human race. Now, it is well-known that instinct is primed in the emotional realms of the human being; it is not rational 'per se', but is conditioned by the rational faculities which man possesses.

    The famous metaphor from the times of the Golden Age of Greece describes the phenomena of the struggle between reason and instinct. To wit, the chariot race with a team of two beautiful horses, one a brilliant white and the other a dynamic jet black. The metaphor unfolds with reason being the white stallion, and instinct or emotion being the black.

    The black is pictured as erratic and veering at times in almost an uncontrolable pace, while the white is steady and true to the course. Both are evenly matched in speed, a beautiful event to behold. But it is the white that controls the black by exerting the true course, a metaphor for the paramount place of Reason and Responsiblity in man. Without the effective application of Reason, disaster would be the outcome, i.e., the doom of human beings in the race of life.

    Let's take the subject matter even more deeply into the past, to the prehistoric times of the cavemen. Another metaphoric picture emerges, which this time attempts to picture the origins of religious belief or faith, and also of its rituals. Get this picture: a strong and successful hunter, who lives in a cave with his family and/or tribe had run into bad weather. It rained day in and day out hard and steadily for almost a week. Now, this hunter would go to the mouth of the cave each and every day to see if the Sun had emerged, and to see if there was any prey on the immediate horizon. He did this daily and became quite frustrated, because the rain continued and the Sun did not illuminate his hunting fields. He became desperate with hunger and the sense that he could not provide for his family. However, on the final day he went to the mouth of the cave and saw not only that the rain had ceased but that the skies were blue and the Sun reigned sending its rays throughout his hunting realm. Then he looked to the horizon, and sure enough, there he saw plenty of prey grazing avidely. Immediately, he went to the task at hand, grunting and gesturing to his family to bring him his flaked and sharpened stone-pointed spear. In not too long a while, he was successful as was his wont and reputation, and killed the biggest animal that he could. Joyously, he brought the prize to his cave, and there he butchered the animal, and gave all to be prepared for the feast except for the rump of the beast. The rump he took to the mouth of the cave and placed it outside in a visable place. Then he went in and partook of the great feast, and afterwards engaged in the fun and festivities, which finally ended in a sexual orgy by the tribe followed by sleep. When, he awoke in the morning, the first thing he did was to go to the mouth of the cave and there he saw that the rump that he left was gone, and that the day was gloriously full of sunshine and blue skies, and the best of all, the prey were once again visable on the horizon of his hunting field. When he saw all this, he raised his eyes to the Sun in the Sky, gestered with his hands together and grunted towards the Sun what could be interpreted to mean. " I got mine, and now you got yours!" And this was the first ritual of religious belief by ascribing socially anthropmorphic characteristics to the blazing planet which is the Sun, the center of our galaxy.

    The social signifcance of this for religious ritual and/or liturgy was enormous, and was synchronized with the great emotions or instincts, of belief / faith that the caveman experienced. Indeed, in a way, he could be categorized as the first priest, imam, or religious cleric of the human race. Now, I know that this is but a story about the emotional or instinctual origins of religionism, and that you are entitled to BELIEVE OR NOT!

    Regards,
    EddieR
    E.1: TWO STEPS FORWARD, ONE STEP BACK - V.I. Lenin

  • #2
    I got your message. but there is a different between the instinct you used and the one i refered to.
    i refered to a biological instinct like "NEED FOR FOOD", "NEED FOR SEX"..
    also "NEED FOR GOD"..
    your caveman story illustrate how uncertainity in human life,relativety, danger, mystries, provoke our innate "NEED TO BELIEVE IN SOMTHING THAT IS CERTAIN, CONSTANT, AND SUPERNATURAL". The caveman needed to believe in a GOD that gives him good luck, and good hunting outcome.. and to protect him from bad weather, and hence femine.

    .. thanks for the interaction... next part i'll move to more logic... now let you time to re-think.

    Comment


    • #3
      THE CONATUS...

      Originally posted by Voice
      I got your message. but there is a different between the instinct you used and the one i refered to.
      i refered to a biological instinct like "NEED FOR FOOD", "NEED FOR SEX"..
      also "NEED FOR GOD"..
      your caveman story illustrate how uncertainity in human life,relativety, danger, mystries, provoke our innate "NEED TO BELIEVE IN SOMTHING THAT IS CERTAIN, CONSTANT, AND SUPERNATURAL". The caveman needed to believe in a GOD that gives him good luck, and good hunting outcome.. and to protect him from bad weather, and hence femine.

      .. thanks for the interaction... next part i'll move to more logic... now let you time to re-think.
      -------------------------------------------
      Voice;

      Your inference that I might need to re-think what I posted to you can be gainsaid by me. There is no logical inconsistancies in what I wrote you.

      The problem with you revolves around the data that you cannot make a significant distinction or difference between the most fundamental instinct that man has, which is the instinct for self-preservation and its by-products like belief, trust, or faith. Self-preservation is primordial to man and is never seen more clearly that in man's quest for the social and economic necessities of life, like food, shelter, and clothing as well as for his personal comforts which include the release of his sexual tensions. The later, of course, is responsible for reproducing the human race and that is obviously a necessity for all humans, too.

      Now, insofar as belief or faith supports the instinct for self-preservation, and from the history of man it can be determined that it does, then belief or faith will be retained as a support for what the ancient Latin language termed the conatus. But to infer as you do that it can surplant the primary or primordial instinct, i.e., the conatus, needs to be re-thought by you. Because, that initial thought of your's is not valid, and all the appealing to the social anthropology of ancient cultures by you will not make it logically valid either.

      Regards,
      EddieR
      P.S. BTW Voice are you of Puerto Rican descent, perhaps one that converted to the Islamic religion? Afterall, this forum is a Puerto Rican one and it is not improper to ask you that question. Don't you think?
      E.1: TWO STEPS FORWARD, ONE STEP BACK - V.I. Lenin

      Comment


      • #4
        No. I am not puertorican. I am born Muslim, and from the middle east, and had my nice childhood in the US..
        you may ask what sent me here? .. i always have been interested to know other people from different backgrounds.. i made some on-line friendships with people from your part of the world (ie Latin America).. i came across here by chance ( i was looking for latin american spanish boards to improve my spanish) and found some mistakes circulated about islam. i thought that i can help people here understand islam, and help my self understand christians.. i thought that would help mutual acceptance and respect.. especially i noticed that people do not know the SHIA islam, but knows the Wahhabi (al-Qaeda) type.. LAter i found, despite the differences that discussion here is healthy one, and that people here have respect for each other.. so kindda liked the

        YES, i got the distinction you say.. your point is valid to differentiate that.. but instincts in general "HELP THE HUMAN BE BETTER".. so basic/ primordial instincts help him survive and reproduce.. but the other instinct help him forms better life quality..like instinct to form GROUPS/ (FAMILY, STATES), instinct of ownership.. instinct of WANTING TO KNOW, EXPOLRE...etc. because human is not like animal.. just eat and live... human forms culture and have "Goals in life".. human life is more than mere eating and survival.. we passed that stages a long time ago.

        anyway, is aid those were evidences..
        my point is that we NEED TO BELIEVE, as WE NEED TO DO OTHER INSTICTS whether primordial, or higher.. (ie NEDD TO BE PART OF GROUP, NEED TO OWN SOMETHING, CURIOUSITY TO KNOW,..etc.
        (if i remember well,, it is called in behavioural science the pyramid of Maselow??!))

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: THE CONATUS...

          Originally posted by Eddier1
          Originally posted by Voice
          I got your message. but there is a different between the instinct you used and the one i refered to.
          i refered to a biological instinct like "NEED FOR FOOD", "NEED FOR SEX"..
          also "NEED FOR GOD"..
          your caveman story illustrate how uncertainity in human life,relativety, danger, mystries, provoke our innate "NEED TO BELIEVE IN SOMTHING THAT IS CERTAIN, CONSTANT, AND SUPERNATURAL". The caveman needed to believe in a GOD that gives him good luck, and good hunting outcome.. and to protect him from bad weather, and hence femine.

          .. thanks for the interaction... next part i'll move to more logic... now let you time to re-think.
          -------------------------------------------
          Voice;

          Your inference that I might need to re-think what I posted to you can be gainsaid by me. There is no logical inconsistancies in what I wrote you.

          The problem with you revolves around the data that you cannot make a significant distinction or difference between the most fundamental instinct that man has, which is the instinct for self-preservation and its by-products like belief, trust, or faith. Self-preservation is primordial to man and is never seen more clearly that in man's quest for the social and economic necessities of life, like food, shelter, and clothing as well as for his personal comforts which include the release of his sexual tensions. The later, of course, is responsible for reproducing the human race and that is obviously a necessity for all humans, too.

          Now, insofar as belief or faith supports the instinct for self-preservation, and from the history of man it can be determined that it does, then belief or faith will be retained as a support for what the ancient Latin language termed the conatus. But to infer as you do that it can surplant the primary or primordial instinct, i.e., the conatus, needs to be re-thought by you. Because, that initial thought of your's is not valid, and all the appealing to the social anthropology of ancient cultures by you will not make it logically valid either.

          Regards,
          EddieR
          P.S. BTW Voice are you of Puerto Rican descent, perhaps one that converted to the Islamic religion? Afterall, this forum is a Puerto Rican one and it is not improper to ask you that question. Don't you think?
          Suki: This entire post says so much about you Eddie. It explains a whole lot. Thank you.

          Self-preservation is what leads humanity to faith and belief. Interesting assertion. Organized religion for the most part is made to cater to control and ritual and therefore doctrine....which leads to status quo and retention or preservation of any given society. Does organized religion truly do the work of feeding the need and faith and belief....that is a tough one. What is more significant? A ceremony or ritual.... or the reason for its existence in the first place? Humans do have the erroneous tendency to believe that their belief is paramount and influential over x, y, z factors. Is it? I can fully believe that I can fly and attempt to jump off a tall building. I will soon learn that my belief is not as powerful as the law of gravity now is it? So why is belief even important then? Lol. My short and concise answer. We strive to know......and because we strive to know....we make many mistakes....ask many questions.....invent many stories, myths...all striving to explain the mysteries and the randomness and the vagaries of life (what Eddie has mentioned as the unknowable)....what the self realization folks...lol....call 'maya' illusion. The material has rules...no doubt about it. Day and night....female and male....water and earth...life and death...does that mean the struggle to find answers is futile? No. It just means we should be careful that we don't think that humanity should be limited to what is knowable now. We have untapped potential and we are made of the same chemical compounds as the stars and the humblest things on earth...dirt and stones, and a blade of grass...the elements that compose those objects compose us as well. Why feel separate from those things? Why do we have a sense of separateness from those things? Many ancient cultures did not recognize the separateness....yet many of us in modern societies do....because the more we transform and manipulate and modify the external "civilization" the more we lose touch with who we really are....like Lewis Mumford....talked about. Lol. Nevertheless I would think true faith and religion is really just wanting unity and absolute belongingness.....to ourselves first and then to every other living creature on this earth....union...and through that union holy communion...bliss. We seek bliss....for some it is freedom and sure freedom (wink) and for others it is love and peace....and joy)....but how to get to that state....that is the big question...which road to take? to get to the destination? Lol. Enough. For now.

          Comment


          • #6
            What we know about psicke comes from cocaineaddict Freud and his wiser disciple Jung who learned about myths. Yet, these are interpretations as all of us do. What if Xenophanes put the things upside down confused the argument of anthropo-morphus gods? What if indeed our mind creates gods into our image because we are deimorphus or theomorphus, in the shape of invisible entities? OIf that is the case Xenophanes confused the reflection upon the mirror with hyperdimensional reality like physicist Michio Kaku in his Hyperspace imagine hyperreality creatures thinking we live in the 4 Dimensional Universe while the twin Universe with 6 Dimensions shwrunk in Planck dimension a trillion times smaller than a proton. What if it's the other way around and we are living in the shwrunk cosmos while the Arab Djiings in Aladin lamps and the Titans in the dark dungeons of the Tartarus (including Chronos ticking-time)are like Cenobites of Hellraiser trapped in hypercube Tesseracts a bit like PANdora's box, the realm of the Pandemonium in a bigger scale? Hmm? How would you deny or accept if our vision limitation can only "watch" 0.5% of the frequences available? Unless of course the Chapulín Colorado antennas work in perfect harmony like key-clock seratonine chemical structure pretty similar to hallucinogenic substances....Hesperides Garden, Eden, Assyrian trees of knowledge, Ygdrassyl, pharmakya or Greek spiritism..a contact or bridge between the dense reality and etherial hollographic bit-byte universal program?

            Comment


            • #7
              The fact is the myths don't represent just animals as seen innature but HYBRID creatures and well we already know the repeated "archetype" dogmas. But what if the people who are actually watching some of these entities in specific places of the world (where blood was poured and stone-batteries seem to have a "memory" in the megaliths where even normal people feel "weird" without knowing with anticipation what the tour guide is gonna tell...and they already knew)? What if the invisible creatures trapped in stones are not a consequence of squizophrenia but actual realities from beyond our ...
              (...MATERIAL WORLD)
              ...? What if the elite shamans in all civilizations depicted 4-faced in a single head, wings with eyes (peacock feather), bull's feet, human bodies in animal heads are not symbols but colective memory of something recorded by fire in our neurons but admitedly..very strong "symbols"? Do we need a micro or teles-spiritualscope to find the spiritual-microbes or red Azimov's Azazel or perhaps the exo-virus from "the other side", a better device than Kirlian camera?
              Perhaps it's not the duty of the philosopher but a botanist and anthropologist to discover that or math physicist.
              Oh yes, lack of evidence ain't evidence of abscense. After all gravitons have not been found and 70 or more % of the vacuum universe is as unknown as black matter. Clap-clap-clap, congratulations to us all!

              Comment


              • #8
                If our mind catches frequences like Hertz waves, I wonder, how come in our cynical modern world Japanese cartoons are making such success? Thundercats, animal Power Rangers becoming Ezekiel's cherub, winged bulls, Sumerian calves, sphinx, TRANSFORMERS!
                Meanwhile, the geneticist plan to insert transgenic DNA animal seed into human beings....into somebody's likeness and resemblance. Pretty objective, right?

                Comment


                • #9
                  http://www.therealmatrix.rg3.net
                  http://www.therealmatrix.cjb.net

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Inca, you, and Suki have made good points about beliefs and instincts. Indeed, if I may add, that ones view of reality is based on actually perceiving whatever (example), ones detection of a illusionary phenomenon through drugs, the bumping of the head or whatever else, does not make it any less real than one who experiences through the 5 senses and validates through conceptual experiments which equate to something that is seemingly permanent and tangible, be it considered rationale or instinctive behavoir. Surely, based on our prejudice beliefs (personal-opinions) and our ability as humans to manipulate whatever so-called reality, this decides a great deal of what would be seen as real, via, interaction with a different reality, and what would be seen as fantasy, the lack of interacting with what is seen but yet limited to conscious-awareness. I know when I watch cartoons on tv, that, they are fantasy, do to it being a reality that I cannot go to and interact in, but yet my limitations are in accordance to what my personal abilities allows me to do and to know, but anyone can conceptualize that all realities are possible regardless of our ability to experience them through all of our senses. Lets keep in mind that physical sensory is still a psychological act, being that any detection of the objective world is a recording sent to the conscious mind (synapse) via nerve centers. So, my view of a cartoon or a illusion, is, one reality that is connected to another reality regardless if I can manipulate it in the same way as my accepted reality. Whatever that is perceived is real to the individual regardless of logical proof are examination from someone who lacks the same experience. Indeed as Inca pointed out, something like unicorns could very well exist underground in some correlated dimension. In a nutshell our perception detects realites when we can be aware of them, no matter how we gain such access, but, human beings are products of their makeup, and will only consider the realities that they can predominantly control and sustain through their experimental involvement. Which is probably why myths has so many disciplines based on what one wants to believe about limited access to proving the past, present, future, etc.

                    Comment


                    • #11

                      You want to know something, Hu..man-neter? There is a significant distinction between notions and concepts. What you are putting out are all notions that cannot be used to give knowledge of the external world.

                      The notions are all subjective and based on the phenomena garnered by the imagination and not from the material world which is external to the individual. It does not even refer to the sense data which one must deal with by acquaintance with the external world. Instead, such sense data is skewed by the subjective feelings and imagination of the individual.

                      There is nothing critically real about the results of the subjective phenomena. Nothing in it can be tested through the critieron of scientific method. It is all solipcism, i.e., subjective idealism dealing with metaphysical abstractions having no logical connection with the empirical world outside of the individual.

                      You are supporting extreme egoism in asserting that everything that is can only be "real" as long as it is as you subjectively perceive it. You are committing a metaphysical error in multiplying your notions of things unnecessarily. On the other hand, concepts are based on the categories of reason; they are the product of the rational faculty of the mind, and can and have been employed by reason in terms of scientific method in order to discover and know the invariant relations of the external world. These invariant relations are the laws of the material world. They are the scientific laws of nature or the empirical world, and they are true knowledge based on reason and science, and not fantasy based on imagination or metaphysical speculations. ESSE NON EST PERCIPI.
                      E.1: TWO STEPS FORWARD, ONE STEP BACK - V.I. Lenin

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