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  • What are Dreams?

    We all dream don't we? When we dream our eyes are closed yet REM continues to take place and we follow the images in our heads....it is not reality....but some dreams feel so much like reality. WHY?
    I would always have a recurring dream of being in a house happy and feeling safe and suddenly a huge tidal wave would be getting closer to me and I would know there was no escape. I would try to warn others and they would steadfastly ignore all my warnings and then when the huge tidal wave would finally crash throughout the house I would wake up. Disturbed. As if I had truly experienced the real anxiety associated with it. Of course I had not. I was safe and sound in my bed with my Picasso poster above my bed and my Old English Sheepdog snoring away at the foot of my bed. But it felt so real. Can the mind fool us? Some of our dreams reflect so many things our waking minds ignore....that is just my opinion.
    Many of us have symbols in our dreams....and feel the symbols are significant but we have a hard time interpreting them. I like reading Jung's analysis of dreams. It is interesting and absorbing reading.

    There is of course the subconscious mind. The id. The conscious or awake state. The ego. The super ego. But what does it all mean? Do all of us have similar dream like symbolism....what in psychology is called archetype. Why?

  • #2
    Have you done the reading?

    Originally posted by Suki
    We all dream don't we? When we dream our eyes are closed yet REM continues to take place and we follow the images in our heads....it is not reality....but some dreams feel so much like reality. WHY?
    I would always have a recurring dream of being in a house happy and feeling safe and suddenly a huge tidal wave would be getting closer to me and I would know there was no escape. I would try to warn others and they would steadfastly ignore all my warnings and then when the huge tidal wave would finally crash throughout the house I would wake up. Disturbed. As if I had truly experienced the real anxiety associated with it. Of course I had not. I was safe and sound in my bed with my Picasso poster above my bed and my Old English Sheepdog snoring away at the foot of my bed. But it felt so real. Can the mind fool us? Some of our dreams reflect so many things our waking minds ignore....that is just my opinion.
    Many of us have symbols in our dreams....and feel the symbols are significant but we have a hard time interpreting them. I like reading Jung's analysis of dreams. It is interesting and absorbing reading.

    There is of course the subconscious mind. The id. The conscious or awake state. The ego. The super ego. But what does it all mean? Do all of us have similar dream like symbolism....what in psychology is called archetype. Why?
    Suki;

    Have you read Sigmund Freud's DREAM BOOK?
    E.1: TWO STEPS FORWARD, ONE STEP BACK - V.I. Lenin

    Comment


    • #3
      Simple answer:

      [i]If you are a materialist reptile who never looks outside of his materialistic closed play-pen: you will only conclude that dreams are only the stuff you fear and experience during a hectic day that comes to torment you at night after eating a badly cooked pizza.

      But if you know in your heart that matter is not all there is, then you will realize that GOD uses dreams to reveal important things to you which you would otherwise never think of:
      Job 33:14-18

      14 For God does speak-now one way, now another-
      though man may not perceive it.
      15 In a dream, in a vision of the night,
      when deep sleep falls on men
      as they slumber in their beds,
      16 he may speak in their ears
      and terrify them with warnings,
      17 to turn man from wrongdoing
      and keep him from pride,
      18 to preserve his soul from the pit,
      his life from perishing by the sword.
      Joel 2:28,29[b]

      28 "And afterward,
      I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
      Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
      your old men will dream dreams,
      your young men will see visions.
      29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
      I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Have you done the reading?

        Originally posted by Eddier1
        Originally posted by Suki
        We all dream don't we? When we dream our eyes are closed yet REM continues to take place and we follow the images in our heads....it is not reality....but some dreams feel so much like reality. WHY?
        I would always have a recurring dream of being in a house happy and feeling safe and suddenly a huge tidal wave would be getting closer to me and I would know there was no escape. I would try to warn others and they would steadfastly ignore all my warnings and then when the huge tidal wave would finally crash throughout the house I would wake up. Disturbed. As if I had truly experienced the real anxiety associated with it. Of course I had not. I was safe and sound in my bed with my Picasso poster above my bed and my Old English Sheepdog snoring away at the foot of my bed. But it felt so real. Can the mind fool us? Some of our dreams reflect so many things our waking minds ignore....that is just my opinion.
        Many of us have symbols in our dreams....and feel the symbols are significant but we have a hard time interpreting them. I like reading Jung's analysis of dreams. It is interesting and absorbing reading.

        There is of course the subconscious mind. The id. The conscious or awake state. The ego. The super ego. But what does it all mean? Do all of us have similar dream like symbolism....what in psychology is called archetype. Why?
        Suki;

        Have you read Sigmund Freud's DREAM BOOK?
        Eddie I am reading a book entitled "the Essential Jung" ofcourse you know Carl Jung was Sigmund Freud's disciple.
        I think both contributed a lot to psychology. My husband really was outstanding at psychology and has deep interest in the subject....I only took the required credits in college where we explored Freud and Jung among other contributers to modern psychology. I remember reading a while back many years ago....Viktor Frankl's book "The Meaning of Life" he invented a school of thought on psychology. A jew who survived the worst of the concentration camps. All for his passion for his psychological theories. Let me finish reading it Eddie and we can have a discussion.

        El Jibaro. What do you think your dreams mean to you? Are they things you can control or do they just flow like a river and you can not control which way they go....they toss and turn like a sailboat in high seas or float on glass like waves accross the ocean? Have you recorded your dreams to see what they are saying to you?

        Why must you throw arrows at Eddie's beliefs before answering into a topic? WHY? If you are interested in a topic just contribute....why rebuke and attempt to belittle someone else? To you they are spiritual messages...allright. What kind of spiritual messages?

        Suki.

        Comment


        • #5
          I wonder what the lack of answers to my questions to El Jibaro indicate?

          Except that he does not like speaking about his dreams. Lol.

          Eddier1,

          I would love for you to state which psychological school of thought you think is most valid? Jung or Freud. Because they wound up killing their friendship (an important one) over differences in interpretation and analysis. I must say I have not read Freud in about 8 years....but Jung I have reread over the years....although to be fair....Freud identified 'libido' but limited it to sexuality.....and Jung extended it to general psychologically based energy. Jung studied psychological diseases such as esquitzofrenia, manic depression and others for a longer time and did more hands on research than Freud on the disease. Still I think their philosophies differed.

          Does Jung's archetypes prove that a 'social consciousness' shared by all humans....lead one to believe that there are similar psychological themes accross cultures? And if there are? Why are those themes i.e. Archetypes so common in humanity's dream states? What is social psychology? How does a particular individual's dreams fit in with a group commonality? Eddie I will share some of my dreams as examples. If you want to share some of your more common recurring dreams....that would be my deepest pleasure. But if you choose not to. Feel free to analyze mine and see if you find the archetypes coming up?

          Suki.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: I wonder what the lack of answers to my questions to El Jibaro indicate?

            Originally posted by Suki
            Except that he does not like speaking about his dreams. Lol.

            Eddier1,

            I would love for you to state which psychological school of thought you think is most valid? Jung or Freud. Because they wound up killing their friendship (an important one) over differences in interpretation and analysis. I must say I have not read Freud in about 8 years....but Jung I have reread over the years....although to be fair....Freud identified 'libido' but limited it to sexuality.....and Jung extended it to general psychologically based energy. Jung studied psychological diseases such as esquitzofrenia, manic depression and others for a longer time and did more hands on research than Freud on the disease. Still I think their philosophies differed.

            Does Jung's archetypes prove that a 'social consciousness' shared by all humans....lead one to believe that there are similar psychological themes accross cultures? And if there are? Why are those themes i.e. Archetypes so common in humanity's dream states? What is social psychology? How does a particular individual's dreams fit in with a group commonality? Eddie I will share some of my dreams as examples. If you want to share some of your more common recurring dreams....that would be my deepest pleasure. But if you choose not to. Feel free to analyze mine and see if you find the archetypes coming up?

            Suki.
            Suki;

            It's been 40 years since I read everything that Freud wrote for the public, and about 39 years since I read Jung. And I still stand by my "druthers" as to the two giants of psychology. In short, I prefer the ORIGINAL,viz.,Sigmund Freud.

            Jung's view of 'social consciousness' is too speculative or metaphysical for me to accept, although it can be employed as a foundation for social psychology.

            I prefer, also, Marx's view that the social conditions produce social consciousness, unlike Jung, who used libido beyond sexuality, generalizing it as the psychological energy of social consciousness.

            Regards always,
            E1

            E.1: TWO STEPS FORWARD, ONE STEP BACK - V.I. Lenin

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Re: I wonder what the lack of answers to my questions to El Jibaro indicate?

              [QUOTE]Originally posted by Eddier1
              [B]
              Originally posted by Suki
              Except that he does not like speaking about his dreams. Lol.

              Eddier1,

              I would love for you to state which psychological school of thought you think is most valid? Jung or Freud. Because they wound up killing their friendship (an important one) over differences in interpretation and analysis. I must say I have not read Freud in about 8 years....but Jung I have reread over the years....although to be fair....Freud identified 'libido' but limited it to sexuality.....and Jung extended it to general psychologically based energy. Jung studied psychological diseases such as esquitzofrenia, manic depression and others for a longer time and did more hands on research than Freud on the disease. Still I think their philosophies differed.

              Does Jung's archetypes prove that a 'social consciousness' shared by all humans....lead one to believe that there are similar psychological themes accross cultures? And if there are? Why are those themes i.e. Archetypes so common in humanity's dream states? What is social psychology? How does a particular individual's dreams fit in with a group commonality? Eddie I will share some of my dreams as examples. If you want to share some of your more common recurring dreams....that would be my deepest pleasure. But if you choose not to. Feel free to analyze mine and see if you find the archetypes coming up?

              Suki.
              Suki;

              It's been 40 years since I read everything that Freud wrote for the public, and about 39 years since I read Jung. And I still stand by my "druthers" as to the two giants of psychology. In short, I prefer the ORIGINAL,viz.,Sigmund Freud.

              Suki: There are things about Freud that I don't agree with. But many that have great validity still to this day.

              Jung's view of 'social consciousness' is too speculative or metaphysical for me to accept, although it can be employed as a foundation for social psychology.

              Suki: That may be why I like his perspective..the metaphysical part of his analysis. Lol.

              I prefer, also, Marx's view that the social conditions produce social consciousness, unlike Jung, who used libido beyond sexuality, generalizing it as the psychological energy of social consciousness.

              Regards always,
              E1


              Eddie,
              I have a recurring dream in which I am running from something dangerous....and my feet become leaden and heavy and I can't run anymore....no matter how much I try and I know danger is riding up behind me close.....or quicksand that shifts and then I am in a brilliant field of flowers...and it feels like a perfect day with a perfect breeze....lol. And it is like the Elyssian Fields of the Greek myths. And I know I should not eat anything or drink anything but I am so dry and thristy and I drink some pommegranate juice and then the fields become clouds...and the ground lifts off....and I wake up.

              I don't know. The feeling at the end is of discovery and wonder sometimes.....and other times of confusion.

              There are anxious dreams, and dreams full of happy thoughts and contentment, nightmares, and wistful feelings, frustrating dreams and peaceful dreams....and erotic dreams, and scary dreams...and playful dreams...and sometimes there are no dreams just black tiredness and physical exhaustion. Why? Is it the black horse Eddie of the chariot....just using a way to manifest itself when the white horse is not looking? What do you think?

              Suki.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Re: Re: I wonder what the lack of answers to my questions to El Jibaro indicate?




                Eddie,
                I have a recurring dream in which I am running from something dangerous....and my feet become leaden and heavy and I can't run anymore....no matter how much I try and I know danger is riding up behind me close.....or quicksand that shifts and then I am in a brilliant field of flowers...and it feels like a perfect day with a perfect breeze....lol. And it is like the Elyssian Fields of the Greek myths. And I know I should not eat anything or drink anything but I am so dry and thristy and I drink some pommegranate juice and then the fields become clouds...and the ground lifts off....and I wake up.

                I don't know. The feeling at the end is of discovery and wonder sometimes.....and other times of confusion.

                There are anxious dreams, and dreams full of happy thoughts and contentment, nightmares, and wistful feelings, frustrating dreams and peaceful dreams....and erotic dreams, and scary dreams...and playful dreams...and sometimes there are no dreams just black tiredness and physical exhaustion. Why? Is it the black horse Eddie of the chariot....just using a way to manifest itself when the white horse is not looking? What do you think?

                Suki. [/B][/QUOTE]

                Suki, I see nothing obviously unusual about your dream. However, you have mentioned others, and, if you wish to select another one, or all, for that matter that have remained so vividly in your memory, I will gladly read them and if anything unusual is obvious, then perhaps I can think of something, or at least, attempt to give you my opinion on it. In any case, I think that you need to talk about them for some reason, and perhaps, simply talking about them will present you with an answer.

                In the meantime, let me offer you some back-up for my support of both Marx and Freud in my former post. I realize it is a lengthy reference, but, given your concern with psychological matters, inclusive of the meaning of your dreams, it might be worth the read (it shouldn't take you longer than 5 minutes of your time, even if you decide not to speed read it, which I don't recommend you do). To wit:

                Erich Fromm: Biography


                By Douglas Kellner
                Homepage: http://www.gseis.ucla.edu/faculty/kellner/kellner.html
                Curriculum Vitae: http://www.gseis.ucla.edu/faculty/kellner/DK97CV.htm


                Fromm, Erich(1900-1980)

                Forced to flee from Nazi Germany in 1933, Fromm settled in the United States and lectured at the New School of Social Research, Columbia, Yale, and Bennington. In the late 1930s, Fromm broke with the Institute of Social Research and with Escape from Freedom began publishing a series of books which would win him a large audience. Escape From Freedom argued that alienation from soil and community in the transition from feudalism to capitalism increased insecurity and fear. Documenting some of the strains and crises of individualism, Fromm attempted to explain how alienated individuals would seek gratification and security from social orders such as fascism.

                His post-World War II books, Man For Himself (1947) and The Sane Society, applied Fromm's Freudian-Marxian perspectives to sharp critiques of contemporary capitalism. Fromm popularized the neo-Marxian critiques of the media and consumer society, and promoted democratic socialist perspectives during an era when social repression made it difficult and dangerous to advocate radical positions. Although his social critique was similar in many ways to his former colleague Herbert Marcuse, the two thinkers engaged in sharp polemics from the mid-1950s into the 1970s. Marcuse began the polemic by attacking Fromm as a neo-Freudian revisionist, and Fromm retaliated by calling Marcuse a "nihilist" and "utopian." Marcuse claimed that Fromm's emphasis on the "productive character" simply reproduced the "productivism" intrinsic to capitalism, and that his celebration of the values of love, in books like The Art of Loving, and religious values simply reproduced dominant idealist ideologies.

                Fromm continued to be a prolific writer up until his death in 1980, publishing a series of books promoting and developing Marxian and Freudian ideas. He was also politically active, helping organize SANE and engaging in early "Ban the Bomb" campaigns, as well participating in the anti-War movement of the 1960s. Fromm continued to argue for a humanistic and democratic socialist position, and claimed that such elements were intrinsic in Marxism. His many books and articles had some influence on the New Left and continue to be widely read and discussed today.

                One of the distinctive features of Critical Theory is their synthesis of Marx and Freud aimed at producing a theory of the psychological mediations between psyche and society ignored by traditional Marxism.7 The key theoretical essays outlining the Institute's materialist social psychology were published in the Zeitschrift fur Sozialforschung by Erich Fromm. Fromm was a practicing psychoanalyst who also received a University position as lecturer in the Institute for Psychoanalysis at the University of Frankfurt; he was interested as well in Marxism and sociology, and joined the Institute as their psychology expert in 1929.8 Fromm was one of the first to attempt to synthesize Marx and Freud to develop a Marxian social psychology, and many of the other members of the Institute were to attempt similar syntheses, though the precise mixture and interpretations of Freud and Marx were often quite different.

                Fromm sketches the basic outline of his project in his article "The Method and Function of an Analytic Social Psychology" subtitled "Notes on Psychoanalysis and Historical Materialism."9 He begins by discussing the basic principles of psychoanalysis, and then indicates why he thinks Freud's theory, properly interpreted and reconstructed, is compatible with historical materialism. For Fromm, psychoanalysis is a materialist psychology which analyzes instinctual drives and needs as the motive forces for human behavior. It carries out an inventory of the basic instincts and dissects the unconscious forces and mechanisms that sometimes control human behavior. Psychoanalysis also analyzes the influence of specific life experiences on the inherited instinctual constitution. Thus, in Fromm's view, Freud's theory is "exquisitely historical: it seeks to understand the drive structure through the understanding of life history" (CoP, p. 139).

                The key conception of psychoanalysis for Fromm is the "active and passive adaptation of the biological apparatus, the instincts, to social reality" (CoP, p. 141). Psychoanalysis is especially valuable for social psychology in that it seeks "to discover the hidden sources of the obviously irrational behavior patterns in societal life -- in religion, custom, politics, and education" (CoP, p. 141). Fromm therefore believes that an "analytical social psychology" is thoroughly compatible with historical materialism since both are materialist sciences which "do not start from 'ideas' but from earthly life and needs. They are particularly close in their appraisal of consciousness, which is seen by both as less the driving force behind human behavior than the reflection of other hidden forces" (CoP, p. 142). Although historical materialism tends to assume the primacy of economic forces and interests in individual and social life, while the psychoanalytic focus is on instinctual and psychological forces, Fromm believes that they can be fruitfully synthesized. In particular, he believes that an analytical social psychology can study the ways that socio-economic structure influences and shapes the instinctual apparatus of both individuals and groups.

                The psychoanalytic emphasis on the primacy of the family in human development can also be given a historical materialist twist, Fromm believes. Since "the family is the medium through which the society or the social class stamps its specific structure on the child," analysis of the family and socialization processes can indicate how society reproduces its class structure and imposes its ideologies and practices on individuals. Psychoanalytic theories, Fromm suggested, which abstract from study of the ways that a given society socialized its members into accepting and reproducing a specific social structure, tend to take bourgeois society as a norm and to illicitly universalize its findings. Historical materialism provides a corrective to these errors by stressing the intrinsically historical nature of all social formations, institutions, practices, and human life.

                Fromm's essay is primarily programmatic and does not specify in great detail how capitalist-bourgeois society reproduces its structures within its members. Rather he is concerned to outline a research program and to argue for the compatibility of psychoanalysis and Marxism proposing that psychoanalysis "can enrich the overall conception of historical materialism on one specific point. It can provide a more comprehensive knowledge of one of the factors that is operative in the social process: the nature of man himself" (CoP, p. 154). For Fromm, natural instincts are part of the base (Unterbau) of society, and he believes that our understanding of human behavior and social processes will be enriched by reciprocal knowledge of how society molds and adapts instincts to its structures, and how human beings shape and change their environments to meet their needs. "In certain fundamental respects, the instinctual apparatus itself is a biological given; but it is highly modifiable. The role of primary formative factors goes to the economic conditions. The family is the essential medium through which the economic situation exerts its formative influence on the individual's psyche. The task of social psychology is to explain the shared, socially relevant, psychic attitudes and ideologies -- and their unconscious roots in particular -- in terms of the influence of economic conditions on libido strivings" (CoP, p. 149).

                Fromm also suggests that psychoanalysis can help explain how the socio-economic interests and structures are transformed into ideologies, as well as how ideologies shape and influence human thought and behavior. Such a merger of Marx and Freud will immeasurably enrich materialist social theory, in Fromm's view, by providing analysis of the mediations through which psyche and society interact and reciprocally shape each other. Every society, he claims, has its own libidinal structure and its processes whereby authority is reproduced in human thought and behavior. An analytical social psychology must thus be deeply empirical to explain how domination and submission take place in specific societies in order to provide understanding of how social and psychological change is possible.

                In an essay from the same period, "Psychoanalytic Characterology and Its Relevance for Social Psychology," Fromm applies his analytic social psychology to an investigation of how bourgeois society forms dominant character types which reproduce social structure and submit to social authority.10 A theory of social character would be central to Fromm's work, though in this essay he assumes in rather orthodox Freudian fashion that the "general basis of psychoanalytic characterology is to view certain character traits as sublimations or reaction formations of certain instinctual drives that are sexual in nature" (CoP, pp. 164-165). Fromm then discusses Freud's theory of oral, anal, and genital characters, and how specific social structures produce and reward certain types of character traits while eliminating others. In particular, drawing on Werner Sombart's study of the "bourgeois" and on Benjamin Franklin's diaries, Fromm discusses how bourgeois society produced a character structure in which duty, parsimoniousness, discipline, thrift, and so on became dominant traits of the bourgeois character structure while love, sensual pleasure, charity, and kindness were devalued.

                Anticipating later Institute studies of the changes within personality in contemporary capitalism, Fromm writes of developments of character structure under monopoly capitalism and suggests: "It is clear that the typical character traits of the bourgeois of the nineteenth century gradually disappeared, as the classic type of the self-made, independent entrepreneur, who is both the owner and the manager of his own business, was disappearing. The character traits of the earlier business man became more of a handicap than a help to the new type of capitalist. A description and analysis of the latter's psyche in present-day capitalism is another task that should be undertaken by psychoanalytic social psychology" (CoP, p. 185).

                Fromm would later describe in detail the dominant character types within contemporary capitalist societies.11 One of the most interesting of his attempts in the early 1930s, however, to develop a materialist social psychology is found in his study of Johann Jacob Bachofen's theory of matriarchy in an article "The Theory of Mother Right and its Relevance for Social Psychology."12 Fromm indicates how Bachofen's study had been appropriated both by socialist thinkers such as Engels and Bebel as well as by conservative thinkers. After criticizing the conservative version of the theory of matriarchy, Fromm suggests how it can be appropriated by progressive thought. To begin, Bachofen provides insights, Fromm believes, into how woman's nature develops from social practices; specifically, how the activity of mothering produces certain nurturing, maternal character traits associated with women, thus anticipating recent feminist theories of mothering.13

                Moreover, Fromm suggests that Bachofen's theory of the matriarchal society reveals "a close kinship with the ideals of socialism. For example, concern for man's material welfare and earthly happiness is presented as one of the central ideas of matriarchal society. On other points, too, the reality of matriarchal society as described by Bachofen is closely akin to socialist ideals and goals and directly opposed to romantic and reactionary aims. According to Bachofen, matriarchal society was a primeval democracy where sexuality is free of christian depreciation, where maternal love and compassion are the dominant moral principles, where injury to one's fellowman is the gravest sin, and where private property does not yet exist" (CoP, pp. 118-119). For Fromm, the crucial question concerning the theory of matriarchy is not whether or not a matriarchal society as described by Bachofen actually existed or not. Rather, the theory of matriarchy represents a certain set of institutions, attitudes, and values opposed to capitalist patriarchal society, and for this reason won wide approval "from those socialists who sought, not reform, but a thoroughgoing change of society's social and psychic structure" (CoP, p. 120).

                In discussion of the transition from matriarchy to patriarchy, Fromm suggests some of the ways that the patriarchal social structure "is closely bound up with the class character of present-day society.... The patriarchal family is one of the most important loci for producing the psychic attitudes that operate to maintain the stability of class society." (CoP, p. 124). In his view, a "patricentric complex" develops in bourgeois society which includes "affective dependence on fatherly authority, involving a mixture of anxiety, love and hate; identification with paternal authority vis-a-vis weaker ones; a strong and strict superego whose principle is that duty is more important than happiness; guilt feelings, reproduced over and over again by the discrepancy between the demands of the superego and those of reality, whose effect is to keep people docile to authority. It is this psycho-social condition that explains why the family is almost universally regarded as the foundation (or at least one of the important supports) of society" (CoP, p. 124).

                In a patricentric society, one's relation to the father is central. Going beyond Freud's theory of the Oedipus complex which also ascribes the father-son relationship primary importance in psychological development, Fromm inventories various ways in which paternal authority is introjected in socialization processes, and the ways that such processes reproduce the values of capitalism and bourgeois society. Fromm then contrasts children's relations with their mother and the matricentric values involved in this relation. While relation to one's father is often conditional on one's behavior, success, and ability to fulfill his expectations, there is at least an unconditional element to mother love and less rigid introjection of values, guilt, and needs to succeed to win love:

                "Summing up, we can say that the patricentric individual --and society -- is characterized by a complex of traits in which the following are predominant: a strict superego, guilt feelings, docile love for paternal authority, desire and pleasure at dominating weaker people, acceptance of suffering as a punishment for one's own guilt, and a damaged capacity for happiness. The matricentric complex, by contrast, is characterized by a feeling of optimistic trust in mother's unconditional love, far fewer guilt feelings, a far weaker superego, and a greater capacity for pleasure and happiness. Along with these traits there also develops the ideal of motherly compassion and love for the weak and others in need of help" (CoP, p. 131).

                After a historical sketch of the association of matricentric culture with the Middle Ages and Catholicism, and patricentric culture with the bourgeoisie, capitalism, and Protestantism, Fromm concludes that: "the real, full-fledged representative of the new matricentric tendencies proved to be the class whose motive for total dedication to work was prompted basically by economic considerations rather than by an internalized compunction: the working class. This same emotional structure provided one of the conditions for the effective influence of Marxist socialism on the working class -- in so far as its influence depended on the specific nature of their drive structure" (CoP, p. 134).

                In Fromm's reading, Bachofen points out the relativity of existing societal relationships and institutions such as marriage, monogamy, private property, and other bourgeois social forms. Fromm suggests that such views on the social constructedness of social arrangements should "be welcomed by a theory and political activity that advocated a fundamental change of the existing social structure" (CoP, p. 123). There were other political reasons as well why such a theory could appeal to progressives: "Aside from the fact that the theory of matriarchy underlined the relativity of the bourgeois social structure, its very special content could not but win the sympathy of Marxists. First of all, it had discovered a period when woman had been the authority and focal point of society, rather than the slave of man and an object for barter; this lent important support to the struggle for woman's political and social emancipation. The great battle of the eighteenth century had to be picked up afresh by those who where fighting for a classless society" (CoP, p. 123).

                Fromm concludes the study by pointing to compatibilities between the matricentric tendencies and Marxism -- and thus between Marxism and feminism: "The psychic basis of the Marxist social program was predominantly the matricentric complex. Marxism is the idea that if the productive capabilities of the economy were organized rationally, every person would be provided with a sufficient supply of the goods he needed -- no matter what his role in the production process was; furthermore, all this could be done with far less work on the part of each individual than had been necessary up to now, and finally, every human being has an unconditional right to happiness in life, and this happiness basically resides in the 'harmonious unfolding of one's personality' -- all these ideas were the rational, scientific expression of ideas that could only be expressed in fantasy under earlier economic conditions: Mother Earth gives all her children what they need, without regard for their merits" (CoP, p. 134-135).

                While one might contest Fromm's equation of matricentric culture with Marxian socialism, it is interesting to note his concern for the emancipation of women and his attacks on patriarchy. One also notes in the article his concern, shared by other key members of the Institute, for sensual gratification and happiness. He believes that Bachofen's emphasis on "material happiness on earth" and "social hedonism" in his theory of matriarchy helps explain its appeal to socialist thinkers (CoP, p. 125), and underlines Fromm's own commitment to material happiness and sensual gratification in a discussion of how sexuality "offers one of the most elementary and powerful opportunities for satisfaction and happiness" (CoP, p. 126).

                Regards ,
                E1
                E.1: TWO STEPS FORWARD, ONE STEP BACK - V.I. Lenin

                Comment


                • #9
                  Eddie

                  I consider Erich Fromm one of the most important intellectuals I have ever read if not the greatest. I read him in my early twenties and then in special seminar course where we started with 17 students....and wound up with 4 left at the end. The reading load was so heavy and the pace so fast and the writing and analysis and debate got very heated...lol. I was one of the four left....lol. I think Fromm said it all in terms of what socialism means to me. He is the reason I am a socialist. Not a scientific socialist...like you are....I guess my early practices of my religion when I was so young made a deep impression and I also found through breathing and doing the exercises for some of the schools of Yoga such as: Hatha Yoga, Siddha Yoga, Kundalini Yoga among others I could not deny their immense value and reality. You saw the result in your body and moods and even in your change in perception. But speaking strictly intellectually....Eric Fromm is the reason for my socialism. Y punto.

                  I try to balance the two and see yoga less like a religion and more like a lifemode. It keeps the body limber and flexible, the lungs clear and the mind cleansed and peaceful. But Eric Fromm gives me that stable sanity you have mentioned. Mami is a big fan as well. She took a bunch of advanced courses at the UPR in Rio Piedras in Social Psychology where his work was featured prominently. She has always quoted him to me.

                  I studied the underlying implications of his theories...and I only hope and pray deeply that they become the reality of 'el nuevo hombre' in the present and in the future as well. I don't doubt it will. And I hope I can contribute to that in the future....I am going to write a novel and it will feature many of this ideas.....but in a creative way. I hope I can find the time. I am so busy. A young 15 year old kid we had taken in for a year with his sister and younger brother....and finally they left about 22 months ago...now he is almost 17 and he got shot last weekend. His face is swollen and the nurse at the hospital told us he was gonna die....Papotito lost it....and he cried. And so did I. But I meditated so hard and he is going to be okay. I hope so. I blame his parents for his situation. But blaming people in pain is no good. You just need to support them. Forgive me if I have been a little emotional lately. Forgive me for that.

                  Anyway,

                  I had a dream last night that was interesting

                  I was driving down the road and it looked like the road from Naranjito to Bayamon with thick foliage and the humid and warm, almost water like air that Puerto Rico has....I was suddenly hot, unbearably hot. So I pulled over and started to take my clothes off....and there was a stream nearby....I thought "good place for a dip" when I went in it was so cool and refreshing and then it became slushy and oily and suffocating....I started swimming (I have always been a good swimmer) and felt a burning of lactic acid accumulating in calves of my legs and I thought I can't cramp up now...I will never reach the other side...I noticed a heavy object hitting my chest and hurting and I looked down and it was the hospital machine....an oxygen machine like the kind one sees in the hospital...I push it away...and finally get out....I noticed my usual shoulder length hair had grown much longer like when I was 18...it is straight which is weird....since I have had curly hair my whole life....and I try to see who I am....My eyes are the same....really big and dark....but my mouth does not exist it is gone....I see my lips fall into the stream and float away and I panic....I must get it back...I hear the trill of the birds...and then the fish become mouths....and I can't remember anything else....I don't know what it means...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Addendum

                    Addendum to my previous post:

                    I understand many of Fromm's concerns about Matrilineal societies and so on. I have met many feminists and women who do not believe in the institution of marriage per se. And monogamy etc. is 'passe' or burgues...so on.

                    I don't see it that way. Lol. My opinion is this. Each individual has a path to take in this life and they must find that which fits their conscience. Like you have. And I have. I did not find any benefit in taking drugs....what for? it dulls the senses and creates addictions, and compulsions. It is detrimental to oneself and to society as a whole. It makes you less productive and strips you of self-control and discipline. I understand when people socially have a small drink or so and that is okay....but to get drunk...many do it to forget....my answer is "did you solve your troubles after getting drunk?....No, instead you have contributed to your problems because now you have a whopper hangover too. Lol. But each individual must make their own choices.

                    In terms of marriage. It could be seen as an oppressive institution if it is entered into as an unequal and repressive and oppressive relationship. But marriage is a lovely thing if it binds two like minded and like feeling individuals in a committed relationship. Many socialist friends of mine....have told me "suki, why did you tie yourself to one man all your life?", "Do you feel like you missed out on something?". No, I have not. Not at all. Because the man I 'tied' myself to....was truly the love of my life. Why do people want more than one amante....I do not know. For variety? For 'freedom'? Remember that post long ago I wrote....about 'naked intimacy'....where you bear your true self...the flaws and defects, the virtues and beauties of the other person....you let all pretense fall away and all there is left is .........naked intimacy of the mind and heart and the body. And you share that and feel fulfilled....you are accepted and loved just as you are...with no trappings, or adornments. And you are more than enough....in that situation....you give everything you got....no holding back a single emotion or sensation. And through that you find peace.....why look beyond what is fulfilling. You are home. No need to go anywhere else.

                    I guess I spoke too much malarkey...lol. Take care. Good Night.

                    Suki.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Addendum

                      Originally posted by Suki
                      Addendum to my previous post:

                      I understand many of Fromm's concerns about Matrilineal societies and so on. I have met many feminists and women who do not believe in the institution of marriage per se. And monogamy etc. is 'passe' or burgues...so on.

                      I don't see it that way. Lol. My opinion is this. Each individual has a path to take in this life and they must find that which fits their conscience. Like you have. And I have. I did not find any benefit in taking drugs....what for? it dulls the senses and creates addictions, and compulsions. It is detrimental to oneself and to society as a whole. It makes you less productive and strips you of self-control and discipline. I understand when people socially have a small drink or so and that is okay....but to get drunk...many do it to forget....my answer is "did you solve your troubles after getting drunk?....No, instead you have contributed to your problems because now you have a whopper hangover too. Lol. But each individual must make their own choices.

                      In terms of marriage. It could be seen as an oppressive institution if it is entered into as an unequal and repressive and oppressive relationship. But marriage is a lovely thing if it binds two like minded and like feeling individuals in a committed relationship. Many socialist friends of mine....have told me "suki, why did you tie yourself to one man all your life?", "Do you feel like you missed out on something?". No, I have not. Not at all. Because the man I 'tied' myself to....was truly the love of my life. Why do people want more than one amante....I do not know. For variety? For 'freedom'? Remember that post long ago I wrote....about 'naked intimacy'....where you bear your true self...the flaws and defects, the virtues and beauties of the other person....you let all pretense fall away and all there is left is .........naked intimacy of the mind and heart and the body. And you share that and feel fulfilled....you are accepted and loved just as you are...with no trappings, or adornments. And you are more than enough....in that situation....you give everything you got....no holding back a single emotion or sensation. And through that you find peace.....why look beyond what is fulfilling. You are home. No need to go anywhere else.

                      I guess I spoke too much malarkey...lol. Take care. Good Night.

                      Suki.
                      Suki, there is so much that has happened on the forum that I don't quite know where to begin.

                      I just finished reading some posts by the accursed Another Rican, one of which he addressed to you, his last post. Those that were directed to iluminado and myself were as 'nothing' compared to what he addressed to you. And to be candid with you, I was struck speechless for many hours into this day of Friday the 13th. Hmmm...

                      You know I wish that you never get to read what he wrote to you, if you haven't already. It is not that I would ever support censorship, but his post to you is so vile and horrible that if I believed that there was a Satan, then I would say without a per-adventure of a doubt that a.r. is Satan incarnate. But using myths like that is a non-valid way to think clearly and unequivocally about anything. It only clouds the mind and threatens it with possible loss of core values and logic.

                      On the brighter side, I see that Free Soul has offered his services as a professional counselor to you, as he has perceived some problem or other in one of your last posts in the religion forum. He is a pro, so I am loathe to say that he is bluffing or simply wrong in his assessment that you need counseling. If you have not read his latest post to you, please do so. Who knows if the things that you are saying about your dreams might be better addressed to him, because they may help him, help you. Please note that I still don't think you need help, but I could be wrong.

                      Your latest dream, for example, still doesn't present me with anything that is obviously unusual. Sure it is a nightmare, 'una pesadilla', but it can be understood if one points out its significant opposite.

                      In other words, let me give you a metaphor of contrasting opposites that might help. For example, on the side of light, the truth can be pictured as the Moon on a cool, beautiful evening with all the stars gloriously arrayed about it, and its reflection is enhanced upon a stream, or lake. When you look into its reflection in the water, you see yourself as you really are, i.e., intact and wholesome! Now, understanding this assists you to understand the dark side that occurred to you in your pesadilla. In short, the false can be pictured as the burning, heat-wave producing Sun on a hot, and steamy day in the semi-tropic zone, and its reflection is cast down upon a stream wherein you can look into its reflection upon the water and see yourself as not having lips and sans a normal mouth, i.e., not intact and wholesome anymore.

                      Now, the reason this happened to you, in your nightmare, is your guess and it's as good as mine, or even much better, if you can discover the answer yourself. Perhaps, your talking about the nightmare might help you to discover the reason it happened to you.

                      Regards as always,
                      EddieR
                      E.1: TWO STEPS FORWARD, ONE STEP BACK - V.I. Lenin

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Re: Addendum

                        Originally posted by Eddier1
                        Originally posted by Suki
                        Addendum to my previous post:

                        I understand many of Fromm's concerns about Matrilineal societies and so on. I have met many feminists and women who do not believe in the institution of marriage per se. And monogamy etc. is 'passe' or burgues...so on.

                        I don't see it that way. Lol. My opinion is this. Each individual has a path to take in this life and they must find that which fits their conscience. Like you have. And I have. I did not find any benefit in taking drugs....what for? it dulls the senses and creates addictions, and compulsions. It is detrimental to oneself and to society as a whole. It makes you less productive and strips you of self-control and discipline. I understand when people socially have a small drink or so and that is okay....but to get drunk...many do it to forget....my answer is "did you solve your troubles after getting drunk?....No, instead you have contributed to your problems because now you have a whopper hangover too. Lol. But each individual must make their own choices.

                        In terms of marriage. It could be seen as an oppressive institution if it is entered into as an unequal and repressive and oppressive relationship. But marriage is a lovely thing if it binds two like minded and like feeling individuals in a committed relationship. Many socialist friends of mine....have told me "suki, why did you tie yourself to one man all your life?", "Do you feel like you missed out on something?". No, I have not. Not at all. Because the man I 'tied' myself to....was truly the love of my life. Why do people want more than one amante....I do not know. For variety? For 'freedom'? Remember that post long ago I wrote....about 'naked intimacy'....where you bear your true self...the flaws and defects, the virtues and beauties of the other person....you let all pretense fall away and all there is left is .........naked intimacy of the mind and heart and the body. And you share that and feel fulfilled....you are accepted and loved just as you are...with no trappings, or adornments. And you are more than enough....in that situation....you give everything you got....no holding back a single emotion or sensation. And through that you find peace.....why look beyond what is fulfilling. You are home. No need to go anywhere else.

                        I guess I spoke too much malarkey...lol. Take care. Good Night.

                        Suki.
                        Suki, there is so much that has happened on the forum that I don't quite know where to begin.

                        Suki: Yes, Eddie....pa' decirte la verdad....I held a lot back with the Another Rican character....I have very rarely gone for the jugular with a person. The last time I did....that person dropped out of a senior year requirement class (a long time ago) and he considered never coming back to the University. He called me two years later and said " I had 'destroyed' him". It killed me. Me puse como el dia ese que me dijistes esas cosas....que me hirieron....mucho y perdi los estribos. I can't get that way with the little CF guy....if I take the gloves off on him....bendito....his chariot is gonna go down in flames with two black horses...LOL. So best to leave him to his devices. Lol. No matter how nutty he gets. Lol. He can come up with all kinds of stuff. Ya eres el solido conmigo. Only the ending of this forum in electronic space would end my support for you. Nunca lo dudes. I will have to cut down on my hours here. But rest assured I will follow your postings with loyalty and attention. All the loving attention they deserve. Besides, your writings bring me lots of good things. Reflection, analysis, learning and synthesis....and like I said before...I live for knowledge.

                        I just finished reading some posts by the accursed Another Rican, one of which he addressed to you, his last post. Those that were directed to iluminado and myself were as 'nothing' compared to what he addressed to you. And to be candid with you, I was struck speechless for many hours into this day of Friday the 13th. Hmmm...

                        Suki: HAHAHA. JIJI JI. (Imitating a certain persona de avanzada edad). Lol.He is angry as a hornet with me is he? Ay Eddie. As my deceased mother-in-law used to say...'la verdad es amarga y duele mas que la picada de un huey enfogonao'. He will be the meanest to the person who hit the core of him the most. He can wish me to have a stroke and brain damage, he can call me a vieja whatever.....though Ecuajey has my photo....and he does not think me vieja.....lol. At all. He can imply all the sly innuendos he wants....lol. His opinion of me I will toss to....let me think of a word...yes...a phrase...that I quite like a lot..."the desuetude of archaic usages". LOL LOL. What I am more interested in is in exactly what would strike speechless....such an eloquent, intelligent and lovely man as you. Eddie I have noticed your personality from the gitgo in this site. Tienes un guerrero feroz y fuerte y tenaz por dentro (and combat is what it has inside) especially when that deep seated sense of morality of yours is offended, just remember those who don't know you believe all the idiocies out of context. I don't. I have seen quien tu eres desde el principio...but you have not seen me. I make sure all the force is contained. For it serves a better purpose. Lol...Lo tuyo..it is pure masculine energy. And I noticed it from the very beginning about you. Los insultos de gente sin cabeza ni sentido, ni gentileza ni amor....nunca hieren. LOL.

                        You know I wish that you never get to read what he wrote to you, if you haven't already. It is not that I would ever support censorship, but his post to you is so vile and horrible that if I believed that there was a Satan, then I would say without a per-adventure of a doubt that a.r. is Satan incarnate. But using myths like that is a non-valid way to think clearly and unequivocally about anything. It only clouds the mind and threatens it with possible loss of core values and logic.

                        Suki: Es que la verdad dicho en la cara...es una pildora amarga para la gente. Especialmente si viene de alguien desconocido. LOL. The few times the gloves come off....it had better be for someone more important than anotherriqueno barato sin cabeza. Lol. I aint taking my gloves off for a lightweight. He needs others to teach him humility. I am throwing him in the heap of 'archaic usages'. LOL.

                        On the brighter side, I see that Free Soul has offered his services as a professional counselor to you, as he has perceived some problem or other in one of your last posts in the religion forum. He is a pro, so I am loathe to say that he is bluffing or simply wrong in his assessment that you need counseling. If you have not read his latest post to you, please do so. Who knows if the things that you are saying about your dreams might be better addressed to him, because they may help him, help you. Please note that I still don't think you need help, but I could be wrong.

                        Suki: My friends say, I am the most balanced creature they have ever seen. I don't give myself credit. It is all yoga practice...and anyone can achieve balance. Thank you for thinking I don't need the help. Writing on this forum about some of my past losses has helped. A lot. And your ear and intellectual conversations also helped a lot. No sabes el sol delicioso que me has dado tu Eduardo. El sol encendido del pensamiento filosofico....is soothing to the soul. I will write to Free Soul. He writes from the heart. I love that. I AM STILL DYING OF CURIOSITY WHAT EVENTS STRUCK YOU SPEECHLESS? I am all ears. Lol. Really. Email me please. Don't make me beg to hear what surprised you. Lol.

                        Your latest dream, for example, still doesn't present me with anything that is obviously unusual. Sure it is a nightmare, 'una pesadilla', but it can be understood if one points out its significant opposite.

                        Suki: Thank you. I wish you would tell me one dream of yours. But alas, I will always respect your parameters, Companero del Alma. Companero. Amigo.

                        In other words, let me give you a metaphor of contrasting opposites that might help. For example, on the side of light, the truth can be pictured as the Moon on a cool, beautiful evening with all the stars gloriously arrayed about it, and its reflection is enhanced upon a stream, or lake. When you look into its reflection in the water, you see yourself as you really are, i.e., intact and wholesome! Now, understanding this assists you to understand the dark side that occurred to you in your pesadilla. In short, the false can be pictured as the burning, heat-wave producing Sun on a hot, and steamy day in the semi-tropic zone, and its reflection is cast down upon a stream wherein you can look into its reflection upon the water and see yourself as not having lips and sans a normal mouth, i.e., not intact and wholesome anymore.

                        Suki: I interpret it differently. I think I know what it means. Lol. But your partly right.

                        Now, the reason this happened to you, in your nightmare, is your guess and it's as good as mine, or even much better, if you can discover the answer yourself. Perhaps, your talking about the nightmare might help you to discover the reason it happened to you.

                        Suki: It did.

                        Regards as always,
                        EddieR
                        Take care dearest Eddie. Trigo de mi pan, y agua de mi fuente...y tomate tus siestitas...que lo necesitas...con tanto rompe-esquemas que has pasado hoy....Friday the 13th. LOL.SUKI aka. La Vida esta pensando en ti.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Re: Re: Addendum


                          Suki, I see that you have read that post by a.r./el jib (and yes, it is el jib that is feigning that he resides in Miami, which was the main place he lived when a kid). It amuses me that he didn't place his counterfeit ego in Orlando, since it is so adjacent to Disneyland, and he would have gotten a lot of positive energy from readers who are 'children at heart' and love those amusement places of their childhood. He muffed that one in his quest to brainwash the readers of the P.R. forums. Also from an analysis of what he writes and the images and/or cartoons he posts, the two screenames represent unquestionably the I.Q. of the failed mechanical engineer of South Tom's River, N.J.; one word that I find repeatedly in the prolific postings of that individual, and it is present in a.r. posts as well as el_jib's is the word "LOOSE" instead of "LOSE". That supports all the other proof in the analysis that the posts of a.r./ el_jib are from Manny Alonso (Rosas), the pitiyanqui from the boonies of Borinquen.

                          You mentioned your photo has circulated to Ecuajey aka Patria y Pava. And I recall, now, that you asked me if I wanted your photo, too. Well, sure I would really like to see how you look now, but there is no way you could send it to me at us103_eddier@hotmail.com and that I could convert it to a photo album. I tried to get software, downloaded from the internet that would make it possible to use html and img, but such software proved not to be totally functionable, but was a bait-and-switch ruse to get me to shell out between $100 and $400 for professional Photo software. And since, I dumped AOL permanently, which gave me the option using their software to receive photos, I have no way to utilize your photo and see it. Sorry about that Suki.....

                          BTW, I tried to re-read that 'damned" post, and found that it was removed, perhaps by the moderators. But since you asked that I tell why it left me "speechless", and I wanted to read that post again before I replied, I must say now that it may have been the same thing that prompted the moderators to remove it from the forum. And I didn't have to ask them to censor it, or any of the other posts directed to me and iluminado (the shining-path comrade from Peru, who writes brilliantly in English, and is chock-full of terrific concepts!). Don't you think so?

                          Regards as Always,
                          EddieR
                          E.1: TWO STEPS FORWARD, ONE STEP BACK - V.I. Lenin

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            My response

                            I don't care if the AR dude is the split personality of SYBIL aka El Jibaro II estadista from the BLACK lagoon. All I know is it is a waste of time giving him any psychic energy. If he were making intelligent, informed arguments for the conservative perspective and treating the leftists with at least minimal respect of listening to the points then I would think debating with the man would be worth it. But he is not about that. He is a guy Eddier1, who has many emotional crisis to work out. I mean stop and think about it. He is on a site where most of the posters (at least in politics) are independentistas....yet he remains and posts more than anyone else here? WHY? I have concluded that he has some kind of psychological need to be here and to try to "punch holes" in our arguments. He does not socialize much, very little. He does not make alliances with other statehooders. He let Anyel and other estadistas hang out to dry if it is convenient for him to do so. He must have the last word at all costs. Deep insecurity about himself. And he gets personal (attacking family, and private relationships in an attempt to win emotionally over the other party, since reason is not working). Why?

                            I will give you a summation of why....ofcourse I could be wrong...since no one really knows the circumstances of other forum posters 100%. But my guess is this....He has made choices in his life that have cost him something valuable.....faith in Puerto Ricans, loyalty to our island, and he knows that in Gringolandia he is just another spic. At his job, in his church, and above all to himself....his name says it all, Another Rican...just another rican...or el jibaro....del campo...a simple country man....it is interesting if you attempt psychological analysis of people (this thread attempts to do that with dreams). He married a humble woman from Central America, most likely not very educated...just a sweet woman dedicated to raising her family and her child or children, and one that would not challenge his authority at home and will always look up to him in awe (at his grand education, his knowledge and his breadwinner capacities). He is in control of his small world. Yet there are those ricans out there, that think differently...and because they exist....they are reminders of what he lost. And what he lost is precious. He lost belief in Puerto Rican culture, Puerto Rican sovereignty as a human nation with a right to dignity and self rule. He has lost a sense of roots. He no longer can say he identifies with wanting Puerto Ricans to be happy, free and themselves. Because he is not. And since he is self-centered what he is becomes the entire world. He thinks if he can attempt to control the opposition and quiet them then he can feel smug...he has silenced the voices of doubt inside his own head...and he can finally live with himself. What he fails to realize is there is only one person in the whole world that one can truly control.....and that is one's self. All others must be allowed freedom to choose and decide for themselves and any attempt at taking that away is doomed to failure.

                            He has little or not existent self-control, it is evidenced by having to reply to every little sentence someone writes to him Eddie.....he needs to control. SO BADLY. Por que esta descontolao'.

                            What I see in you and who you are, is very private. And I could not write it here on this forum. If you are interested in that let me know and I will email you who I think you are. Es mi profesion estudiar la gente. That is what a good cultural anthro person does. Lol.

                            Take care. And do not shell out the money. I mailed 3 pictures to Ecuajey...my baby picture, a picture of when I was 16 years old like he is now, Lol. And a pic of me at 35. I sent him postcards, chocolates, and many things. I have requested he let me send him more things...but he refuses to let me spend my money. Like a true friend would. Lol. But what he and you don't realize is that letting me give to you makes me happy, and making me happy is what a good friend should be concerned about. Lol.

                            Have a lovely Sunday. And Iluminado has emailed me. He is young and brilliant and chock full of wonderful things. I will quite enjoy getting to know him better.

                            Suki.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Eddie

                              I am afraid the AR man made the mistake of going after my husband and now I am gonna have to go for him. Sorry I will have to regulate him.

                              Forgive me.
                              Suki

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