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  • #76
    Oh boy!
    You two are getting pretty serious with this ďWhich God is the True GodĒ thing.
    Remember guys; there is only one ďGodĒ. Itís religions that there are to many of.

    Chi, itís true, a Christian canít see the Bible as an open textbook, ďlike a math bookĒ. We see it like the inspired word of God. But that doesnít mean that it has to be a book of mysteries.

    The Holy Spirit is Biblical, itís gods active force by which he gets things done. He gave that Holy Spirit to his son, just as he does to those that serve him well. Itís those that donít do his will that have to worry about not having Godís Holy Spirit.

    As for buying you a ticket to heaven: the Bible teaches us many things. What God wants from us, how we should live our life so that we please him, how we should treat others, in the congregation and outside, how to treat with our family. It helps us earn ďa ticketĒ to his approval. Of course, as you said, itís not enough to just read the Bible. One must live a Christian life, and one must have faith that Godís way is the right way.

    ďFaith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.Ē (Heb.11: 1)

    Chi, we donít have to see God to believe that he exists. The only different with believing in God and believing in aliens is that we can see Godís existence in the things that surrounds us, and in his word, the Bible. There is a difference between the Bible and other religious books, something that even ďChristianityĒ has tended to put aside, and that is its prophecies.

    It has fulfilled a lot of prophecies, not only about Jesus, but also of a lot of other things.
    It is fulfilling a lot of prophecies right now. And it has many prophecies that are to be fulfilled in the near and distant future.

    There are a lot of thing that ďChristianityĒ argues about when it comes to the Bible. But when you really look into it, you fined out that most of it is just customs and traditions or just plain false teachings. The immortality of the soul for example, something that even you believe in.

    The word of God is quite simple in reality. It was men that turned his back on God, and it is mankind that refuses to summit itself to God.

    Where I work, I have people who are under my authority, but that doesnít make me the ultimate authority on the job. I have I high authority to answer to, just as they have thereís, and so on and so onÖ

    Jehovah God created the universe, he made us all, and he is the ultimate authority. Donít you think so?

    He doesnít wish for any of us to be destroyed, but for all to repent and find salvation. But thatís not what is on the minds of the vast majority of the people today. He brought the flood, but he first sent Noah. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, but he knew what was in there harts. He destroyed Jerusalem, but it was his people who would not listen to his profits.

    What makes you think that he will act in an unjust way in the ends of days?

    Thereís a storm (hurricane last time I heard) by the name of Albert. Itís not even half way across the Atlantic yet weíre already getting up to date information on where heís heading. Armageddon is a tab bit more then any Albert, Georges or Andrew, but people just donít seem to care.

    God is Love. God is justice. But God is also intelligent, and God is powerful. No one will be treated with unjustly, for better or for worse.

    Be good you guys,

    Take care,



    • #77

      Have you ever heard of the word SACRIFICE? In the Old Testament people SACRIFICED Innocent Animals in order to spare living Sinners of INSTANT DEATH. Muslims traveling to Mecca still SACRIFICE ANIMALS, so it is not the monopoly of Jews. As for Christians, the FACT that Jesus died as THE ULTIMATE SACRIFICE is the logical progression from sparing JEWISH SINNERS previously from INSTANT CORPORAL DEATH to TODAY'S SINNERS OF SECOND DEATH.

      If you read closely Genesis, you will find Adam and Eve being clothed by God just before HE cast them out of Paradise. He did not clothe them with woven garments, but with ANIMAL SKINS, so in the first pages of the Bible we see INNOCENT ANIMALS dying for GUILTY HUMANS.

      Chi, I see you miss the point. Physical Death is of little value, SPIRITUAL DEATH is of INFINITE VALUE. Jesus did not die on the Cross to save our skins, He died to save OUR SPIRITS. God can EASILY remake our skins at any moment after death, BUT NOT OUR SPIRITS. You also IGNORE the Doctrine of the Lake of Fire. The Bible says in Revelation Chapters 20 and 21 that the Lake of Fire was made to PUNISH ETERNALLY Satan. Those who SIN become allies of Satan, and that is WHY GOD HIMSELF HAD TO RESCUE THEM, but those who REJECT this RESCUING Sacrifice of Jesus will partake of Satan's Reward because they are REJECTING the ONLY WAY of SALVATION. In fact, this is why we call going to Heaven for Christians <<SALVATION>>, because we naturally deserve something else.

      Chi, you don't have to understand the TRINITY to see that God did the ULTIMATE in SALVATION. Sinners deserve ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, and HE TOOK THIS ETERNAL PUNISHMENT HIMSELF when HE was nailed to the cross. Chi, this is explained in 2 Corinthians 5.21, so read it and you will see.

      And GeeTee, what you OPENLY TEACH is SALVATION THROUGH GOOD WORKS. Read Ephesians 2, and tell me what comes first, SALVATION or Good Works? There is SAVING FAITH, and then there is the kind of faith that make demons only shudder. GeeTee, I HOPE YOU HAVE SAVING FAITH: I know I do, since I have a POWERFUL WITNESS that tells me so [Romans 8.9-17].

      Manuel Alonso


      • #78
        "Chi, I see you miss the point. Physical Death is of little value, "
        OK then if you really feel that way- Kill yourself!

        ------------------ Que Viva Humboldt Park!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


        • #79
          Unless I forfeit my life by MURDERING someone else, ONLY THE GIVER OF LIFE can take it away.

          WHO is this GIVER OF LIFE?

          I'll give you a hint: it was not my Dad, nor my Mom .

          desde_el_Jurutungo_de_Bairoa: Manuel Alonso "El JŪbaro"


          • #80
            OK Jibaro is Criollo your alter ego or something?

   Que Viva Humboldt Park!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



            • #81
              Yeah Chi, when I write from my home PC I am logging on as Jibaro, and when it is from the office I log on as Criollo.

              desde_el_Jurutungo_de_Bairoa: Manuel Alonso "El JŪbaro"


              • #82

                I have been reading some of the posts, and will finish to read them tomorrow, but I wanted to ask a couple of things.

                1) What about the Jewish religion? Jesus was Jewish, so wouldn't that be the true faith? And the Jew's don't beleive in the new testament. So how do we get to heaven?

                2) Did Jesus really exist? Men wrote the men lie? Yes. The Jew's also beleive that Jesus was an exceptional man, but not the Saviour. Other's say that he never died on the cross. Who knows? Those texts could be altered to control the masses and that's one of the Catholic Churche's goals.

                3) Your original question was how could people be judged by God's standards if they never knew them? Who says that their way of life was wrong? They lived a better life than we do, and with a higher degree of honor, a greater understanding nature and themselves!

                4) If you say that worshipping nature is idolitry then there are a lot of things that can be considered idolitry. Watching too much tv, putting on makeup, cooing over your car, muscles, girls, guys, sex, money or even working. Where do you stop?

                5) Ofcourse you would also consider magick evil, right? Wicca, Paganism, Witches, all are wrong for following their hearts? Casting spells for luck, for help or healing. For love. Trying to learn what the future has in store for you through tarot cards, a medium, or a scrying glass? Trying to bring the dead back to life, just like Jesus? Did he do miracles? Was he magick?

                Who is to know the true faith? There are so many, and all are worthwhile to those who worship them. We will know what was right when our time comes to be judged.

                Lady Sira

                Love and Light
                Love and Light


                • #83
                  Madam Sira:

                  I am going to answer your questions in order, but I must first be UPFRONT. There are persons who ACCIDENTALLY IGNORE the TRUTH, and there are persons who DELIBERATELY IGNORE the TRUTH. I hope you are in the FIRST group of people, and not in the SECOND group, since for the SECOND group NO AMOUNT OF FACTS will make them SEE the LIGHT. That in Scripture is described as: <<The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the Good News of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.>> Paulís 2nd Letter to the Church in Corinth Chapter 4, Verse 4.

                  1) You were talking about JUDAISM. To REAL CHRISTIANS, it is still a VALID RELIGION, but ONE THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE TOABIDE BY. Only Jesus DID obey ALL of Godís COMMANDMENTS FULLY. I must stress here GODíS COMMANDMENTS, because there is a real problem in JUDAISM about adding laws made ONLY BY MAN, to GODíS LAWS. Many adherents of JUDAISM in Jesus times, hated Him, because they ONLY FULFILLED EXTERNALLY what is really a LAW that covers the ENTIRE of HUMAN EXISTENCE [spirit, soul and body], that is why, among many things, Jesus had stressed that MURDER is not only a matter of physical action, but also of INTENTION of the HEART. As an example, they by themselves and without Godís DIRECTION had made all kinds of regulations about how to OBSERVE the SABBATH. Now, it was God HIMSELF who gave them the COMMAND to OBSERVE the SABBATH, but they added all kinds of extra rules on how to APPLY Godís Command. As a result, the Jews of Jesusí Day had NO TROUBLE helping to get a donkey out of a ditch, but were greatly troubled when Jesus HEALED the sick on the Sabbath. That is ONE EXAMPLE, and I donít have the time here to write an entire book on the subject of SCRIPTURAL JUDAISM versus TRADITIONAL JUDAISM, but I hope that as a RATIONAL PERSON you catch my drift.

                  Now the Jews did not believe in Jesus then, and many of them still donít believe in Him, because He doesnít fit into THEIR TRADITIONS and not because He REALLY BROKE any of GODíS LAWS. One DAY, they will, but that is a matter that ONLY PERTAINS to GOD and will occur in FUTURE YEARS.

                  How do we get to HEAVEN? Well, we are either ABSOLUTELY PERFECT, not EVER HAVING DISOBEYED GODíS LAWS, or we must place our FAITH on HIM who did, and WHO also Died as a SACRIFICE taking the PUNISHMENT WE DISOBEDIENT HUMANS DESERVE. I donít know about you, but I have SINNED, so I need a RESCUER. My RESCUER is the ONLY PROPHET who is STILL ALIVE after 20 centuries after RISING PHYSICALLY from Death: how about you?

                  2) I see you donít know much about HISTORY. Even TRADITIONAL JUDAISM recognizes that the MAN they considered a false prophet existed. The ROMAN EMPIRE did too, and that is why they put all the IMPERIAL POWER of its Day to wipe out Jesus and His followers. Thus, even NON-BELIEVING Romans recognize that Jesus had existed and had been EXECUTED by one of their MILITARY GOVERNORS; and they felt glad that their EMPIRE was more "powerful" than Jesus...

                  Today, many RECONSTRUTIONIST HISTORIANS try to debunk the ďmythĒ that Jesus ever lived, but the fact that they try to DENY the existence of Jesus, while not doing that with any other RELIGIOUS figure like Mohammed, Buddha, or Confucius, show the ONE-SIDEDNESS of it all. Interestingly, many of these types are also trying to DENY that the Modern Jewish HOLOCAUST ever took place. I donít know about you, but I donít pay attention to People who want to DENY REALITY.

                  Thankfully, MOST of the NEW TESTAMENT OLD MANUSCRIPTS that exist TODAY were found in places where the Roman Catholic Church does not exert any power. Most of the NEW TESTAMENT OLD MANUSCRIPTS we have came from EGYPT, SYRIA, GREECE, JORDAN, TURKEY, ETHIOPIA and NORTH AFRICA. There are more than 24,000 of these ANCIENT COPIES OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, some of them written less than 30 years after the last APOSTLE died [John, if you didnít knowÖ]. I wish there were as many old copies of any other books like the Philosophical Treaties of Plato and Socrates, or even Homerís ILIAD, but you donít see anyone DENYING that these existed, or that they were the AUTHORS of their teachings.

                  About the FACT that HUMANS wrote the New Testament: well I am happy it was not written by dogs, or horses, or pigs. The FACT that bothers MOST OF US is that GOD INSPIRED those Writings, and the HOLY REQUIREMENTS in those Writings is what makes us FEEL SO UNCOMFORTABLE.

                  3) I have never read in the NEW TESTAMENT and in the OLD TESTAMENT that God will Judge people based on COMMANDS they were never aware of. IN FACT, the Apostle Paul says himself that there was a time when he was not aware of Godís Commandments, when he was happily without condemnation; but when he became aware of those Commandments that is when Paul realized he was under CONDEMNATION. [You can find this in Paulís Letter to the Romans, Chapter 7.] Thus, the NEW TESTAMENT clearly says INNOCENT CHILDREN that do not know the difference between RIGHT and WRONG will not be barred from HEAVEN. TRADIONAL CHRISTIANITY, based on HUMAN PHILOSOPHIES and SOLELY HUMAN TRADITIONS, has a hard time accepting that, but this again DOES NOT CONCERN ME. What CONCERNS me is what GOD SAID .

                  As a MATTER OF FACT, Paul also wrote that those who WORSHIP NATURE and THEMSELVES after having RECEIVED the TRUTH have NO EXCUSE. [You can read this in Paulís Letter to the Romans, Chapter ONE.]

                  That NATURE is NOT ITS OWN AUTHOR is clear to even children three years old. The ENTIRE UNIVERSE bears the unmistakable imprint of being CREATED by SOMEONE much GREATER and WISE than itself. You will never see the SKY writing Spanish Poetry with the clouds, ONLY HUMANS CAN DO THAT. You will never see ELEPHANTS writing out a book on QUANTUM PHYSICS: ONLY HUMANS CAN DO THAT. You will never see CHIMPANZEES asking themselves WHY DO THEY EXIST, only THREE YEAR OLD HUMANS CAN DO THAT. This MADAME, is ONE OF THE EVIDENCES that show that GOD MADE THE UNIVERSE and that ONLY HUMANS SHARE <<TIMELESS>> INTELLIGENCE with HIM WHO MADE THEM IN HIS IMAGE.

                  NATURE is BOUND by CORRUPTION. Take a brand new Cadillac, place it in a SEALED VAULT for 500 years, and it will have rusted ANYWAY. NOTHING in the UNIVERSE lasts forever. You know this, or at least you should . Even our sun is winding down. And you want me FOCUS on what is DECAYING?

                  Oops I forgot to say that TIMELESSNESS, the NOTION of ETERNITY, is SPIRITUAL. We are used to calling things we can feel sentimental about spiritual, but not all things are spiritual. In FACT, WITCHCRAFT is called a FRUIT of the CORRUPT HUMAN ESSENCE, not of the SPIRITUAL HUMAN ESSENCE [Galatians 5]; why?

                  4) I see you have a PROBLEM with English [or Spanish] and defining words properly. To <<WORSHIP>> something is to DEVOTE COMPLETE ATTENTION, PRAISE, ADMIRATION, ADULATION, and WORTH to a Person or a Thing. There is ONLY ONE who deserves this kind of ATTENTION, the SOURCE of NATURE, the CREATOR, the ONE WHO WAS NEVER CREATED. When ANYTHING CREATED receives this kind of ATTENTION, then we are committing IDOLATRY: we WORSHIP an IDOL and not the CREATOR.

                  Take a TREE, hug it and kiss it and give it offerings of any kind, even blood. Now tell me if IT MOVES, SPEAKS, HEARS or RETURN ITS AFFECTION to you who so ATTENTIVELY showered it with .

                  This is the STUPID MISTAKE that anyone who WORSHIPS CREATION DOES, they shower ATTENTION on the INANIMATE, on what has NO ETERNAL POWER. If you want to WASTE your TIME, do so, but I will spend my TIME in better things [like fishing, or eating a juicy steakÖ].

                  5) Well, HERE IS WHERE YOU SHOW DELIBERATE DENIAL OF THE TRUTH. The ONE who DEFINED all the activities you mentioned WRONG is the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE. If HE says they are WRONG, then I waste my time QUESTIONING HIM. The LAST CHAPTER of Revelation says that those who PRACTICE WITCHCRAFT will not inherit HEAVEN, but their REWARD will be the LAKE OF FIRE, along with satan. I rather KEEP AWAY something HORRENDOUS that will LAST FOREVER.

                  When MOSES freed HIS NATION, he did ALL HIS MIRACLES because GOD was the POWER behind the MIRACLES. You may have seen ďPrince of EgyptĒ; well the MAGICIANS in Pharaohís service made their walking sticks turn into snakes, just like Moses did, but tell me which snake ate the other two?Ö The Magicians turned a bowl of water into blood, but tell me who turned AN ENTIRE NILE RIVER INTO BLOOD. Yep, MAGIC can get you so far, but ONLY GODíS POWER IS INFINITE. Tell me how many MAGICIANS saved their firstborn from the power of DEATH, while SIMPLE ISRAELI SLAVES were SPARED?Ö Not even the <<spirit>> that ďsweetly Ē inspires those who REJECT Jesus will be spared from ETERNAL TORMENT.

                  6) ďWho is to know TRUE FAITH?Ē Even FALLEN ANGELS that SHUDDER from KNOWING what will happen to THEM have an ounce of FAITH. Yet TRUE SAVING FAITH is demonstrated by ITS FRUIT. Like Jesus said, you cannot harvest wine grapes from a THORN-BUSH.

                  There are many FALSE CHRISTIANS out there, and HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY ARE FALSE? By looking at their LIVES! Do they easily CHEAT, LIE and STEAL, and also LIVE IMMORAL LIVES? Then you know that they are not REAL CHRISTIANS.

                  This same PRINCIPLE applies to WICKA ADHERENTS. But, I am afraid that you are NOT GOING TO FIND A SINGLE WICKA ADHERENT bearing GOOD FRUIT.

                  You may try to call GOOD FRUIT evil, And EVIL FRUIT good, but you will not change the REALITY of it all. You will not see a Mother Theresa among the WICKA: ONLY A HEART FILLED WITH JESUS WILL DO WHAT SHE DID. On the other hand, you will see people like ADOLPH HITLER, who hated Jews and practiced NATURE WORSHIP and VEGETARIANISM, and was a strong believer in REINCARNATION, be among the WICKA, or the WICKA-LIKE.

                  Yep, FRUITS do show the TREE.

                  desde_el_Jurutungo_de_Bairoa: Manuel Alonso "El JŪbaro"


                  • #84
                    hola gente,

                    In those days there was no king in israel; everuone did what was right in his own eys. judges 17:6......FREEDOM DOESN'T GIVE US THE RIGHT TO DO WHAT WE PLEASE, BUT TO DO WHAT PLEASES GOD.