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  • #16
    Almost a 100 Million lives between 1927 to 1978 (about 50 years), all in pursuit of Utopia.

    A 10 to 1 Kill Ratio; Socialism is the most effective killer of humanity.

    ------------------
    Manuel Alonso

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    • #17
      And my friends lets not forget the crusades! In Texas they love executions!

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      • #18
        Joey:

        When I mentioned the 10 to 1 kill ratio I had added together all the people that Borax was alleging to be killed by "Christianity", including the Crusades.

        100 Millions killed by Socialism in 50 years.

        10 Millions killed "in the name of Christ" in 2000 years.

        I rest my case.

        ------------------
        Manuel Alonso

        Comment


        • #19
          Why can't we stay as a Commonwealth?, Because Romero Barceló wants to see the Island as a State before he dies.... Does this means that P.R. would be much better under Statehood? What happened to Hawaii, are we going to be ending as they are right now? Without a Culture, and SCREAMING for Independence... NOT only that asking the Marine to clean their Island......... Has someone out there comparing this to our Island?


          Are we going to be excempt from all this?


          KIKI
          reynav@cyberonic.com

          ------------------
          m.navarro
          m.navarro

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          • #20
            Why can't we stay as a Commonwealth?, Because Romero Barceló wants to see the Island as a State before he dies.... Does this means that P.R. would be much better under Statehood? What happened to Hawaii, are we going to be ending as they are right now? Without a Culture, and SCREAMING for Independence... NOT only that asking the Marine to clean their Island......... Has someone out there comparing this to our Island?


            Are we going to be excempt from all this?


            KIKI
            reynav@cyberonic.com

            ------------------
            m.navarro
            m.navarro

            Comment


            • #21
              There are huge differences between Socialism, Comunism and Fascism.

              Stalin, Lenin & Mao were Comunists;

              Hitler was a Fascist Nationalist who wanted to create a pure race of Germans or "Arians" - he was not concerned with equality for anyone except the Arian race.

              Holland, France, Canada are Socialist Democracies - While they all have there fair share of, mostly, economic problems - IN TERMS OF THEIR NATIONAL DEBT - they function well in the Diplomatic sense. The majority of their citizens live well, are well educated, and are provided with a socialized healthcare systems that for all of its flaws is still much better than the average public (municipal) hospital in the US.

              Let's stop using the failures of comunism to instill fear. THE COLD WAR IS OVER - WE ALL KNOW THAT COMUNISM FAILED AND IT WILL BE A COLD DAY IN HELL BEFORE PR EVER BECOMES A FASCIST REPUBLIC. THOSE POSSIBILITIES ELIMINATED - LET US NOW HAVE A MEANINGFUL DISCUSSION OF THE ADVANTAGES OF BECOMING A SOCIAL-DEMOCRATIC-REPUBLIC WITH DIPLOMATIC AND ECONOMIC TIES TO, NOT JUST THE US BUT OTHER WORLD POWERS LIKE THE UK, FRANCE, SPAIN, ETC.
              Que Viva Puerto Rico Libre.

              Comment


              • #22
                Isabel:

                Your response is very proper and very civil. What a welcomed change to the goons that frequent these halls.

                I don't know much on Holland's Socialism. What little I know is that Euthanasia is legal there and for 25% of the recepients it is not a voluntary choice but a doctor-made decision. Imagine, the same doctors that work for the HMO's and withhold services to save money decide on who dies, even if they don't want to.

                The Canadian brand of Socialism is good to the point of making New Yorkers sneak into the Canadian border to get illegal health care cards, but the currency there is at an all time low. Then again, they also are having lots of trouble to keep their French speakers inside the union.

                I don't know much about France's brand of Socialism but I have seen allot of strikes by many services sectors such as transportation. Then again, if I am not mistaken they pay $5.00 a gallon of gas over there.

                I don't know much about Spain's brand of Socialism, but I met a fellow Aerospace Engineer who is a Spaniard in 1993 who told me that unemployment there was around 25%. However, the picture that he portrayed of Spain was so good that I daydreamed with living in Spain. I wonder if things can be nice there to newcomers like me...

                You forgot to mention Sweden, which by all accounts was the Socialist heaven of all time, but which has been very quiet as of late. I wonder if that has anything to do with the end of the Cold War (now they are not that vital to NATO). If I am not mistaken a few years ago they were into changing a few things into their system...

                Ah, but the greatest Socialist Experiments that I know of is Puerto Rico itself. Back when I took Economics 101 in College, the professor took the time to explain to us that Puerto Rico had a mixture Socialist and Capitalist Economy; in particular the Government sets prices, such as for Coffee, Bread, Milk and Gasoline. Right now we drink in Puerto Rico one of the most expensive coffees, and it is not 100% Puerto Rican. We owe this Socialist Experiment to Muñoz Marín. From 1952 to 1968 the Island had the greatest GNP growth of the entire American Hemisphere. That trend reached its end though in 1968 and has never gotten up again, even though since that time we have had PPD and PNP administrations almost 50-50, thus there should have been a great effort to keep the economy growing as far as the "ELA" is concerned by the PPD governors. There are things I do like like about our "Experiment": the 500 Acre Limit on Farms (Agragrian Reform), the Parcelas to grant housing for the poor, and the ACAA [our government version of Medical and Hospitalization insurance in case of Auto Accidents]. I am very convinced that if the government requires Liability Insurance for driving then they should be in the business of providing it since it lends itself to "Cartel Economics" like I have observed here in New Jersey.

                However the Socialist system has been a failure in reducing unemployment, and to raising our level of self-suficiency and the sense of responsibilty in our People. Why go to work if you get a paycheck for not doing so? You know Isabel, the Bible says clearly: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat." - 2 Thessalonians 3.10 As long as the government sustains people that should be working there will be allot of busybodies immersed in crime and vice. The role of government is a wrong one when it tries to be the omnipotent source of well being of all the citizens (only the Creator of the Universe can fulfill that one). Then it stops doing the role that it should be doing, like Law and Order. Which by the way shine for their absence in our Socialist Experiment, Puerto Rico.

                About Communism, you have not read enough "Claridad", and pertinent literature, and if you have it may have been only after the Cold War. In fact, before the Iron Curtain fell never did anyone inside Communism call it Communism, but Socialism. Our own Puerto Rican Communist Party called itself the Partido Socialista Puertorriqueño. The Soviet Union never called itself Communist, they called themselves Socialists [Union of Soviet Socialist Republics]. Cuba, specially Fidel, has never called its government Communist, only Socialist. And as far as Nazism, it stood for Nationalist Socialism, where the only ones getting the Socialism where Full Blooded Germans, the rest got the Boot, or the Crematorium.

                Anyway got to go. See you later Isabel.

                ------------------
                Manuel Alonso

                Comment


                • #23
                  Jibaro

                  I think the point here is that all of these cases of abuses of power have a history all their own. You seem to think that one word-socialism-can render all those differences one and the same thing. Yours is a case of simple misclassification.

                  Political nomenclature is just language. The hard work is in figuring our "why" things happened as they did, rather than just putting it all in one bag and calling it by the same name. What was "socialist" or "communist" about all of those governments that abused their power and engaged in genocide? What is "non-socialist" about comparable acts of violence rought by governments that claim to champion capitalism in the US and elsewhere? Its just language, nothing more.

                  I don't recall Marx espousing mass killings and mass graveyards in abandoned grasslands, nor do I think Lenin would have looked upon feeloaders with approval. Actually, I think Lenin would have starved them. If you can cite either of them and refute my position, I stand corrected.

                  Marxism as a philosophy is one of the intellectual achievements of the twentieth century (turn of the century actually). It has helped us all (even those that don't know of its influence over their thought processes) to better understand society. But its not a "doctrine", its not "right" or "true"; its merely a tool for increasing understainding, and like any scientific theory it needs development.

                  Those hypocritical and opportunistic tyrants do not warrant the dismissal of Marx, a free-thinking, critical theorist that seriously studied society. What we could learn about ourselves if we spent more time reading Capital rather than watching 20/20, 60 Minutes, or even reading Claridad (in many, but not all, cases--and lets not forget NYTimes...).

                  Scholarship and science and philosophy are not the enemy; the quest for power and greed are to blame. Socialism suggests it may be possible to more equitably distribute power; capitalism intensifies our preoccupation with private property and encourages the perpetuation of inequality. Democracy allows us to speak, but in the US, all this talk has not prevented us from having the most stark gap between the "haves" and "have-nots". Is it because what the people are calling for is for more privileges for those that have and less access for most of themselves, or is it because this so called democracy has found a way to focus the electoral lense to corrolate voice with property. Clearly, there is much work to be done, intellectual and material.

                  ------------------
                  A map of the world that does not
                  include Utopia is not worth even glancing at, for it leaves out the
                  one country at which Humanity is always landing. And when Humanity
                  lands there, it looks out, and, seeing a better country, sets sail.
                  Progress is the realisation of Utopias.
                  OSCAR WILDE

                  A map of the world that does not
                  include Utopia is not worth even glancing at, for it leaves out the
                  one country at which Humanity is always landing. And when Humanity
                  lands there, it looks out, and, seeing a better country, sets sail.
                  Progress is the realisation of Utopias.
                  OSCAR WILDE

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Marrerito:

                    As a Mechanical Engineer with two degrees in Science I can tell you that when you test a Theory and it always fails in the Lab, then it must be wrong. Go look for another.

                    What Marx and his followers have overlooked is the inherent human weakness, call it propensity of human nature towards SELFISHNESS.

                    As long as SELFISHNESS is part of the human spirit there cannot be true equality. And how much force is one going to employ to erradicate what is inside everyone of us?

                    Hitler thought the problem was in the genes.

                    Pol-pot thought it was in the training.

                    Mao thought it was in the landlords.

                    Fidel thinks the problem is the U.S.

                    How many social experiments does humanity have to endure to achieve what can only be achieved by the Creator of the Universe Himself?

                    Jesus said: "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander." Matthew 15.19

                    However, Jesus told the Prophet Ezekiel six hundred years before, through His Holy Spirit, that He would change the hearts of man: "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws." Ezekiel 36.26,27

                    "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit." Romans 8.1-4

                    "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit." Galatians 5.24,25

                    "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!" 2 Corinthians 5.17

                    ------------------
                    Manuel Alonso

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